I am trying to work up some loads for my .470 NE with cast bullets. New Guy gave me a load of 37 grains of AA5744 behind a 540 grain cast bullet with a gas check. My question is, don't you need to use a filler and if so, do you just use dacron or something else and how much filler do you use? Thanks in advance for your help.

Mike

G'day, Mike.

For considerable discussion about fillers in general, go to

www.cb.gunloads.com

which is the address for "Cast Boolits", the best site on the Internet for bullet-casting and related subjects. On the toolbar on every page is a "search" button, and just type-in "filler" as a search word...there's a LOT of info!

Many people say that 5744 and 2400, for two prominent examples, DO NOT require fillers to perform well. From my experimental work, I disagree with their stance. In dozens (or more) examples, I find that a LOOSE dacron tuft with these powders usually gives me better ballistic consistency and often, better accuracy as well.

Just yesterday, I fired 120 rounds of experimental .338 Winchester Magnum ammo, all with cast bullets, all with 2400 or 5744, and all with dacron fill. Results were danged good in a couple of combinations...ten round groups well under an inch from fifty yards.

Although I haven't used a .470, I've loaded for the .50-2.5" Sharps', and still load the .45-70, .416 Rigby and .404 Jeffery with cast bullets. In all of them, dacron is valuable with reduced loads.

In the method I use, I pull a tuft off the huge clump of loose "polyester fiberfill" which I buy by the bag in sewing departments at WalMart etc. The tuft is about the size of whatever airspace I visualize to exist between the powder and the bullet base, maybe a touch larger. I tuck the tuft into the case with a flat-bit screwdriver, but ONLY until I feel the tool contact the powder!

Then, if any dacron remains outside the case, I just tuck it barely inside the casemouth, which allows the bullet to finish the installation of the dacron as it's being seated.

NO COMPRESSION is applied to the dacron except that which is applied by the bullet!

We are not talking about "wads" here; we are looking for "filler", which with dacron is an almost weightless way to keep the powder back against the flash-hole. Most emphatically, we do NOT WANT UN-OCCUPIED, EMPTY AIRSPACE BEHIND THE BULLET!!!!!

I've now fired many thousands of cast-bullet loads ranging from 6.5x54 MS to the above-mentioned .50 Sharps', and by installing dacron as described, have never had any ill effects whatever in any cartridge.

Come on over to Cast Boolits, and you'll find over 1800 friendly souls who are happy to share their experiences. We do have quite a bit of fun, too...

Bren,
Would you mind emailing me your recipe for your 404 Jeffery cast bullets!
rkmojo@aol.com

I use filler in my 577/450 bp loads. I've used both carded wool and kapok. Both are easily purchased off of ebay. A pound or two of either will do a lot of loads.

Rusty;

Sorry, but I can't seem to access my Email.

I don't mind posting the loads here, though, because they are well below maximum levels.

The bullet is an NEI design listed as the .421-390GC. Unfortunately, this design will probably not work in most .404s, where the groove diameter is .423" or thereabouts. My Cogswell & Harrison Mauser has a groove diameter of .4185", and the bullet works very well. When NEI says their bullet is ".421", they MEAN it! In straight wheelweight alloy my bullets are casting right at that .421" dimension, and weigh almost exactly 400 grains.... which of course makes the bullet a very close duplicate of the original .404 factory load.

NEI does have some other, fatter designs for the .423 barrels. Check their catalog at www.neihandtools.com My mould arrived EIGHT DAYS after I ordered it, and all of their moulds are special order!

My loads were tested using .375 RUM brass which is both die-formed and then fire-formed to the original .404 dimensions. It's an easy process and gives me wonderful cases.

After rather extensive testing over several months, I have adopted two loads as my 'standards' for this rifle. Undoubtedly, there will be more testing to come, since I can never leave well-enough alone, but...

My fun load for the rifle uses 46.0 grains of XMP 5744 with a dacron tuft. Average speed is 1840 fps from the 21" barrel, and groups of under an inch for ten rounds from fifty yards are normal for this load (with a low-power scope sight). The last time I tested it, the extreme spread in velocity was 33 fps and standard deviation 13 fps....pretty consistent, in other words.

The factory-duplication load uses H4895 (and dacron), but I don't have the exact charge here at work with me. Its speed is almost precisely the same as Kynoch factory ammo which I've chronographed, which was 2150 fps. My rifle is pretty lightweight, and the 1800+ load is a lot more fun to shoot in extensive range sessions.

I'll try to get that data and post it once I get home in the morning.

Bruce,
Thanks for sharing your information!

Rusty

Mike,
You do not "need" filler with 5744 but I often use it anyway...just out of habit. I never measure the filler for my reduced loads...I just make little balls to fill the space. BTW I load 45 grains with a 500 Grain cast bullet in my 470....they are great fun to shoot. Rusty fired a few in my rifle at the DRSS shoot in Texas. He found it to be quite easy to shoot.

You don't need any filler with XMP5744. I've never heard of that being true for 2400. The .470NE and .500NE cast Bullet loads I use are extremely accurate and I never have to worry about fillers. I too have used the Dacron filler for years with never a problem, just remember that its the creation of an air-space that has been linked to ringed chambers with thin walled doubles being very susceptable. I've never seen or heard of one occuring with dacron, but I can easily imagine scenarios where it could happen. Basically if you can avoid fillers its probably the safest option.-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

mind sharing your 500 CB loads? I am at that stage with the 510KX and would like some "experienced" data.

thanks,

Rich

I've done a fair bit of loadwork with Unique and 2400 in various rifle chamberings, and have never used a filler. There might be some slight consistancy accuracy benefits, but IMO they are not worth the potential risks.

An example of a good load is 17 gr of Unique in my 350 Rigby under a 200 gr cast bullet. Average velocity was just over 1400 fps, and the 10 shot string had an es of less than 20 fps, and the 50 yd group was 1" and change.

This isn't meant to disparage Bruce, as he has way more cast loading and shooting experience, and I have a great deal of respect for his methods and techniques. It is to say fillers aren't necessarily needed.

I use 43.5 + 44.0 of 5744 in my 470 NE Merkel.Have used with + without filler + can't really tell any appreciable difference.I'm shooting a 500G. W/G.C. So who has some data using 2400?

Mike,
Precision reloading has a product that I have used extensively in my single shot Sharp's rifles,cal,45-70,45-90&45-110.
It is called PSB!
I found it to work exactly as advertised,check out the article at ;http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp
it is a little messy to work with,but worked real well for me!

Kinda got delayed here. PaulH, thanks for the kind words, but I'm surely not anybody's "guru".

Rusty, the .404 factory-duplication load that I arrived at was 60.0 grains of H4895, with a dacron tuft over the powder...this is with the same NEI 421-390GC buulet, of course. This same rifle has happily digested EIGHTY grains of the same powder under Barnes 400-grain bullets, so it's a very moderate load.

Now, about 5744 and 2400 needing filler material...

I'll be the first to admit that these powders don't "need" dacron fill in most of my loads, because they work pretty well when loaded loose in the case.

However, I'm not just looking for something that goes "bang" reliably. What I search for is the best-possible results with a given combination of ingredients, and it often happens that 2400 or 5744 give me better results with dacron than without. Just that simple.

For an extreme example, consider that my .416 Rigby (RCBS 416-350 cast bullet) gave me consistent hangfires with 2400 AND dacron, until I got the charge up into the 30-grains-plus area. Without dacron, it gave irregular hangfires until the charges were well-above that level. Visualize thirty grains of powder rattling around loose in a 120-grain-capacity case, and you'll see a condition I want to avoid.

The smaller cases can benefit as well. One prominent example is that of my new-condition #4 Enfield .303. During a test of stair-stepped loads of RE-7 with and without dacron, the load with less than one grain of the fluffy stuff added fired ten rounds into 1.2" at 50 yards, while the identical load without dacron "grouped" over FOUR INCHES! Fortunately, I don't see changes of that magnitude very often.

Anyway, considerable testing has taught me that dacron is a valuable tool to have available. It's certainly not a cure-all, or a magic wand, but there are many times that it really can be useful to the cast-bullet rifleman.

Also, I'm often prompted to test for myself "what everyone knows" in handloading, and one of those things is the 'common knowledge' that these powders need no fill. As it turned out, for a lot of my uses, they DO need fill...for best performance.

Good stuff Bruce. Thanks for all the feedback.

Mike