JFM
It could be a lot of factors, If I had played with different powders and loaded for fps instead of 1/2 moa being my goal. The 375 may have worked out a little better. On my safari the two animals (out of 14) that ran the longest were shot with the 416. A Blue wildebeest through the heart ran about 400 yards and a Zebra shot though the right ham and out the left shoulder ran about the same. The blood trails were 6 foot wide, both animals were dead on there feet. Is the 416 more gun than the 375? yes, but after watching the heart shot wildebeest run off, I have decided that I want more gun for buff than a 416 and got a 470 double. I would not sell a good 375 to buy a 416. It is just as leathal, the 416 makes them sicker though, but for a stopper I want .458 dia and 500 grs . The biggest animal I shot was eland. I used the 416. MY first shot entered near thelast rib, and was found under the skin on far shoulder.
He just stood around for a minute or so, I was starting to think I missed. He walked towards me, this time I shot through the point of the shoulder to break him down. The two shots crossed, the last shot lost petals and exited. The first bullet looked like a barmes add.

JD

Some would argue that the belted 375 is too much, or rather more than needed for the vast majority of African game. Especially now, fewer numbers of hunters are in the field. Of the hunters actually hunting in Africa, very few will hunt more than plains game. The price is getting prohibitive. Of the dangerous game that we see routinely taken, Leopard and Cape Buffalo are far and away the most prevalent. The leopard doesn't require more than the 375 and the cape buffalo can be easily taken with the 375 as well. Could you use more on the Buff?? Of course, but then the argument would be tipped in favor of a larger caliber. After my last safari of 21 days in Tanzania, the only animal I would have used my 404 on was Elephant. In that case I would probably prefer a 500 Jeffery! This is just my opinion. Shoot what you want but make each shot count. Ask yourself one question, would you shoot your 375 at deer in Texas or Oklahoma? I do. I do so because I like my 375. Is it necessary? Only in my mind!

Personally, I like the 416s. They have good velocity and a heavier bullet than the 375. The 375 is and shall remain king probably beyond my lifetime. The 416 may not be a stopper the likes of the 505 gibbs or the 470 NE, but it still does a pretty good job dispatching game when you only get 1 shot.

John

quote:

Ask yourself one question, would you shoot your 375 at deer in Texas or Oklahoma? I do. I do so because I like my 375. Is it necessary? Only in my mind!

Red deer I have. Never shot one at a white tail. Shot some hogs with it. Native deer get the .300 H&H.

In Africa I shot a duiker with a .375 300gr because it was what I had slung on my shoulder at the time. Swift A-Frame if it matters. Sorta buggered the duiker hide, though it saved having to remove the heart and lungs myself. They escaped the animal by a good 10 yards. Made one bounding leap and landed in a crumpled heap. That one is a shoulder mount.

I bought my .416 Rigby to be "More gun" than my .375s. In return for hard to find in Canada and expensive brass, double the recoil, expensive bullets and lesser trajectory I'm not really that sure I got "more gun". I'll keep it around until I get my elephant, or entirely rethink the process and decide that I really wanted "A lot more gun". The .375 on the other hand is one heck of an "Allrounder".

My current view is that the 9.3 is a better allrounder than the 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
My current view is that the 9.3 is a better allrounder than the 375.

Debatable point but for being roughly equivalent the 9.3 costs more to shoot.

Really. PRVI 286 SPs are $18 a box/20. Show me some 375 HH at that price point.

Anything's debatable, especially around here. The 9.3 is on a standard action, non-belted, guns are cheaper, kicks less and is really more of a middle of the road round. 375 is weighted towards being a true powerhouse.

This debate should include 416rem on the one side. But then should you include 375 Ruger on the other?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Really. PRVI 286 SPs are $18 a box/20. Show me some 375 HH at that price point.

You didn't specify which 9.3 so I assumed x66 because it'd be the one I'd likely buy. Sorry. Being as this seems to be a magazine rifle discussion I knew it wasn't x74.

quote:

This debate should include 416rem on the one side. But then should you include 375 Ruger on the other?

Yup. Of course, if one were to be pedantic, 9.3mm (.366) doesn't quite make .375 caliber and is therefore not legal for some hunting and below the caliber requirement for this forum.

9.3x66 Sako? Proprietary/wildcat, for me, would disqualify it as an "allrounder". Not like there's any criteria or definition for allrounder. We'd all be predisposed to make assumptions, what we'd be "likely to buy" being a perfect indicator. I should've been specific but I assumed here in bolt guns it'd be understood to be 9.3x62, in the double forum 9.3x74R. Nine-three, 9.3x62.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
9.3x62

I reckoned that.

It's a better choice for elephant hunter, but .458Lott, 11,60x76, .470NE, .500NE,.... are a lot better for that purpose. The quality of bullets is so much better then when Taylor was around I would go with .375. I would not pick Rigby cal. for elephants either. The .416Rigby is only nice in vintage Rigby rifle, luvly collectible.
If one can't afford to shoot .375H&H the 9,3x62 is a fine choice. It's a "drab" caliber and kinda cute in "farmer's market" kind of way.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
9.3x66 Sako? Proprietary/wildcat, for me, would disqualify it as an "allrounder".

Let me know when you buy boxes of 9.3x62 at Walmart if availability of factory ammo is an issue.

quote:

Not like there's any criteria or definition for allrounder. We'd all be predisposed to make assumptions, what we'd be "likely to buy" being a perfect indicator.

We were talking DGR rifles in a Big Bore forum not medium bore guns.

quote:

I should've been specific but I assumed here in bolt guns it'd be understood to be 9.3x62, in the double forum 9.3x74R. Nine-three, 9.3x62.

I assumed that in Big Bore we were speaking about any form of action that launched big bores but they had to be .375 or bigger. I started a .577 Snider hunting thread and nobody complained that it wasn't a bolt gun. Maybe I read wrong. 9.3x66 makes more sense in comparison to .375 H&H as an allrounder if you are in DGR land.

To stay relevant to this thread, I own a 416 but not a 375, because it was undeniably more powerful and I am not the best shot anyway, so punch / ballistics at > 150 yards is academic for me.

Now to steal it for my own nefarious purpose: where do I find this Privi Partisan ammo? I have been feeding my herd of 9.3x62s with S&B, but it's getting a bit expensive these days. How does it compare (as far as point of impact from same rifle) with the S&B 285 gr. SP rounds?

TG

Anybody going to bring up the 9.3X64 Brenneke? What's this 9.3X66 that Tom keeps alluding to?

If we're going to be ultra "pedantic" and get into semantics here, I don't know why the big bore forum includes the .375 to begin with. I assumed most everyone considered .400 plus as big bore. Asked about this before, but never got an answer.

It seems to me that owning both a 416 and 375 doesn't make much sense... particularly for reloaders. You've got pretty much everything covered with one or the other (I have more faith in the .416's). Maybe owning a 416 and a 9.3, either 62 or 74R, makes more sense, as I agree with Showbart that the 9.3 is a bit of a more "all arounder" when considering PG. Owning all three would seem pretty ridiculous and redundant, but I must confess, I am both ridiculous and redundant.

last thing, someone mentioned earlier that buffalo can easily be taken with a 375.

I don't know that buffalo can"easily" be taken with anything short of a howitzer. That buff might not know whether it's been hit w/ a 375 or a 416, but who cares what the buff thinks... I know that my 416 just put a fatter, heavier bullet with a lot more energy in that beasty. Big holes means more blood, which means easier to find. Of course, I'd prefer either the 470 or the 458 Lott to either the 375 squirrel thrasher or the 416 white tail anhialator!

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:

If we're going to be ultra "pedantic" and get into semantics here, I don't know why the big bore forum includes the .375 to begin with.

Because it's the legal minimum for DG hunting in a number of places and you have to draw the line somewhere. x66 is eminently googleable. No need to paste a history here. It's a good cartridge that didn't take off because everybody already had .375 H&Hs or equivalents.

Yeah, I thought the line was at .400. I don't want to go into my own historical story as to why the 375 was made the legal minimum b/c I'm sure most of you know it.

If the 9.3X66 is "eminently" googleable, than I shall do so (how the hell anything can be "eminently" googleable blows my mind, and before you ask, I know the definition). I believe I was trying to point out that when referencing anytning 9.3, in my opinion, the 62,74r,and 64 Brenneke are the more commonly thought of. However, I will soon be more eminent in intellect because of your obscure reference. Many thanks Tom.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:I don't want to go into my own historical story as to why the 375 was made the legal minimum b/c I'm sure most of you know it.

Somebody didn't like a Yank gun builder, as I recall.

If you want ammo issues then get the 9.3x66. 9.3 period is genreally considered legal minimum with the 9.3x62 being the common one but I wouldn't be so sure as to assume that 9.3x57 is. Some from Africa, have to me referred to the Nine-Three as Standard when in fact I was talking about the 9.3x74R. When I pointed this out they said yeah 9.3 Standard. If it goes in a bolt gun or a double these two are by far, to my knowledge, the common 9.3s of Africa with the 9.3x62 extant. There, that's muddy enough.

Really I have to contradict myself and say that the 375 really does make alot of sense for the 1st timer if you compare it only to 416 Rigby but I'll qualify this by saying that for DG you need to load heavy for caliber. The price of Rigby ammo is bad here but over there it's obscene, that's understood, with the 375 just an easier proposition. But if there's practice, reloading and general study of it's proper use, no 416 can be beat by a 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Really I have to contradict myself and say that the 375 really does make alot of sense for the 1st timer if you compare it only to 416 Rigby...But if there's practice, reloading and general study of it's proper use, no 416 can be beat by a 375.

Fair enough but I carry something bigger than a Rigby (Lott) so it sorta depends on what you are going to shoot and how many guns you are going to keep in the locker and carry over to hunt.

.300 ammo is easy to get over there, common 9.3 is easy, .375 is easy, .458 Win/Lott isn't that hard to find, Rigby is spendy.

My current quandary for the coming trip is what to take for the littler things. Leaning towards my .220 Swift.

If I was going to do a one gun thing and lean towards the medium bore angle with easy ammo and mostly smaller PG, I think I'd go .30-06 or 9.3x62 but, as an American, .30-06 and it's relations are easier to come by than 9.3. That's one of the reasons why if I bothered with a 9.3 I'd likely make it with an x66 on the end. It's going to be inconvenient either way.

When my wife and I head out it'll be with a 470 double, 416Rem M70, either a M70 375HH or CZ 550 9.3x62, an AyA 4/53 12 bore and possibly some smaller bolt gun as yet undetermined.

If I'm on my own then without question it'll be 470NE & 416Rem in the rifle battery.

I said here that for this thread we should include the 416Rem with the Rigby and by doing that certainly sounds the death knell of this lively and enjoyable debate. In favor of the 416!

quote:

I said here that for this thread we should include the 416Rem with the Rigby and by doing that certainly sounds the death knell of this lively and enjoyable debate. In favor of the 416!

Unless you have .375s and all the requisite loading stuff and like them already. My new project build is a .375 H&H Flanged Magnum Farquharson pattern rifle. Got brass and ammo, just need dies and to build a gun. I like my Three-Seven-Fives and Four-Five-Eights.

No offense here fellas, but I find the -06 to be about as boring as outdated re-runs of the "Golden Girls."

Tom- go with the 9.3X62 and get that extra juice you'll need for that Kudu, or buy a .358 barrel and turn that snore job -06 into a 35 Whelen. Yeah, yeah, I know the arguements for its practicality and its versatility, but there are so many rifles that are far superior to the odd six for African PG. I don't understand why it is still so commonplace in Africa. I suspect that the fact that it is commonplace is the reason in itself for it being so commonplace to begin with (I'll try and use commonplace one more time before the day is through).

The 338 winny, 35 Whelen, 338-06, 338 federal, 350 remy mag, 300 weatherby, and so on. That list is a little unfair and subjective, because I have or have had one of all the cals I mentioned above. I guess my opinion on the 30-06 as being a snore job is also subjective, but I'm holding firm here that the 338 win, or any of the others I mentioned, are superior to the -06 when it comes to African PG.

But seriously Tom, my 35 Whelen might be my favorite rifle, and I find it more versatile than the -06 if you hand load it. I've owned two, the 1st one lost a fight to the back tire of a pick up truck, and the second one just came in last week (remington 700 mtn. rifle 30-06 rebarreld with a type III .358). Something to consider.

When I go, I'll be taking my 9.3X62 I just bought this morning on impulse rom Cabelas, my 470 nitro and/or my 458 Lott. My wife will be taking a 338 winny, but will actually shoot the 9.3. I've also got a good custom shop 416 remy and a model 70 375 H&H, but I'm not sure those babies won't be sold before I head East. Man, I'd hate to have to sell that H&H, but Showbart, you know you have 1st dibs on it.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Tom- go with the 9.3X62 and get that extra juice you'll need for that Kudu, or buy a .358 barrel and turn that snore job -06 into a 35 Whelen.

Never said I'd take an 06.
Current battery for next hunt is:
.458 Lott 1.5-4
.375 H&H express sights
.300 H&H 6-24
*THIS PLACE BEING HELD UNTIL I DECIDE ON THE SMALL ONE (probable .220 Swift)
.450 Marlin/.45-70 BFR

Already got 2 .375s so 9.3 doesn't excite me.

Odds are I'll shoot damn near everything PG related with the .375 just like last time unless it's a far shot.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:

...I've owned two, the 1st one lost a fight to the back tire of a pick up truck...

Almost forgot, you'll like this. Bluegrass festival an eon ago with a fellow I used to play guitar and mandolin with sometimes. Some other fellow, can't remember his name, left his cased Martin behind the fellow I was playing with's truck. He went to go get provisions. Came back and said "Hate to be the bearer of bad news but one of y'all just got a new pickup on your D-28. Ford F-150 pickup." After dark on a cloudy night.

Tom- you said, "If I was going to do a one gun thing and lean towards the medium bore angle with easy ammo and mostly smaller PG, I think I'd go .30-06 or 9.3x62 but, as an American, .30-06 and it's relations are easier to come by than 9.3." I guess I misunderstood you...?

I like the line regarding the banjo, but I bet it didn't make him feel one damn bit better about losing his Martin. My grandad ran over my 1st Whelen a couple of years ago while hunting in a ranch located in the Palo Duro canyon in the Texas Panhandle. Fortunatly, I had brought 4 other rifles for back up, which leads to my next subject...

If it were up to me, I could afford it, and I wouldn't get laughed at, I think I wouldn't be satisfied unless I brought at least 10 rifles with me to Africa. They are as follows: 1)35 Whelen 2) 338 win mag 4) 9.3X62 5) 9.3X74R Chapuis sxs 6) 375 H&H 7) 416 remy 8) 458 Lott 9) 470 merkel nitro express, and 10) a 45/70 with a crap load of really hot loads to finally settle the cape buff vs. 45/70 dispute. Oh yeah, I forgot my 7-08 BLR for the little grunts.

How I am ever going to decide which ones to take absolutely evades me at this time. Selling a couple will certainly make the choice easier, and I've got to take my big daddy double. I don't know that I need the Chapuis double anymore because of my new .62, but dang it's purdy. Decisions, decisions.

My .416 Rem. with both 350 and 300 gr. bullets may shoot a tad flatter than my .375 H&H with .270 gr. bullets, but its so close its hard to measure the difference...I'd have to call it a push from a practical standpoint with the 300 gr. 416 having a very slight edge, maybe.

I don't consider the 300 gr. 416 or the 235 gr. 375 great hunting bullets, In the .416, I would prefer the 340 gr. Woodlieh or 350 gr. whatever a better performer on all counts. The 340 Woodlieh is an excellent plainsgame bullet up to and including Eland. The 350 gr. works OK on buffalo, but not my choice..The 270 gr. 375 is an ideal all around bullet and in a pinch would work on buffalo just fine.

Proper bullet construction always a must with any weight bullet.

As I always say that the 375 H & H Magnum falls short for large (elephant, rhino, buffalo and Hippopotamus), however I consider ideal for large antelopes and other continents to bear ... etc. for large as I said the 416 onwards.

Oscar.

I've been down the same road. I liked my .375 amd found the .416 Rigby to be just a bit more gun and it gave me just a bit more confidence. Whe I went over .50 with a .500a2, now that was way more gun. The difference between a .375 H7H and a .600OK is WAY WAY more gun and with 750gr bullets will shoot as flat as any 30-06. Dont believe for a moment that the recoil is too much either. -Rob

Lazarus Thread

Lazarus (Heb. ElÊ¿ÄzÄr Eleazar "God (has) helped") ......the subject of the miracle recounted only in the Gospel of John,[1] in which Jesus raises him from the dead.

What's your feeling on the 495 A-Square as a step or two up from the 375 H&H Robgun?

Regards,
Chuck