Sabot,

Where do you get your sabots? I have a 375 ultra and would like to shoot some sabots in it. Higher velocity and less recoil too.

Do you get over 4000fps with any loads? I saw where you posted 4000 with a .270 150 grain.

Yes I would also be interested in more information. Thanks.

I am doing R&D on sabot applications for big game and target applications as a business venture. They are made to my specs by a local Dupont subsidiary. They are not ready for production, as this will take some additional investment and I don't want to risk that untill I get the nod from BATF.

I can say that there is absolutely no question that sabots, when kept thin enough and launching heavy enough bullets, will run rings around any full bore rifle application you have ever encountered, period.

Thanks,

Best of luck on your venture.

The question more properly is where do you get your powder? Remington reportedly used non-cannister powders in their Accelerator loads.

I have not tried developing my own sabot loads because the accuracy reported with the Accelerators was not great.

I would like to see some better results, as you could use one rifle for a wider variety of uses. Or I think you could.

Sabot,

I hope your venture does well.

jim dodd

Get the ok from BATF for making little plastic parts Why they are not bullets nor are they firearms.

Thanks for the support and encouragement. As long as I don't get into materials or detailed design, I am more than happy to share what I have learned through experimentation. After all, a sabot is a very old idea and not patentable. More knowledge of and interest in sabots is a good thing, as that's really an undeveloped market. So, feel free to ask questions and if I actually have a no BS answer I will reply.

Now, as to the Rem Accelerators, they suffer from too light a bullet in too big a bore. I don't know if they tried to solve this with non-cannister propellants, but I have used commercailly available 224/308 sabots to duplicate all of the Rem loads in 30-30, 308 and 30-06 with cannister powders. These bullets at 50 to 55 grains are just too light in a .308 bore and don't generate enough pressure to get a good burn out of any powders I tried. If you go to a really fast high energy powder like Longshot or Power Pistol the pressure spikes in the throat and you just blow a hole through the sabot.

So, pressures are low in the Accelerators and in handloads the duplicate them. A 55 gr bullet out of an '06 at 4000 fps is pnly 1956 FPE, when the '06 should generate 3000 FPE. Load density is 100%, but most of the propellant energy is wasted.

In addition, the .224/308 sabots are very short rounds and you need an exceptionally short throat to get to the lands. If you do, they CAN group like the full bore loads, but one needs to watch how hard they seat very carefully and lay off crimping. Best accuracy so far was with a 300 WSM in a tight throated Savage.

All of these problems are solved by using heavier bullets and thinner sabots. The advantages all come together in the .338 to .375 bores as these can be had with 1 in 10 twists and will stabilize smaller caliber bullets that are heavy enough to work in the bigger bores.

Any plain old 338 Win Mag will launch 180 gr .308 bullets as fast as the 300 RUM, and if you know the throating tricks, with better accuracy, 25% less powder and 30% less recoil. If the sabots are coated, there is almost no fouling, and your bullets no longer need jackets (for target work).

A 375 RUM will launch the same 180 grain .308 at 3760 fps with good accuracy, but you need a harder more expensive sabot to match the 308/338.

The accuracy of the 338/375 sabot in the 375 RUM is so good I consider it to be a fluke (200 gr Nosler BT @ 3550 fps).

Regarding BATF, its not a good time to play games with them. I respect the work they do and ethically there is no alternative to working WITH them. Now, with that said it is my opinion that properly tagged and inventoried sabots are LESS likely to be used in a crime because the sabot will be laying on the floor or ground somewhere and a nitro sniffing dog will find it in 15 seconds. Hey , if some criminal wants to hang around and try to find a putty colored sabot after firing a round or two...have at it! Takes me an hour or so, and sometimes I NEVER find 'em.

Sounds wondeful if they work out commercially. Please keep the prices reasonable for those bits of plastic.

If they work as you said and I can load preferably a .30 cali or a .338 cal in my .375 I might start to use almost nothing else.

I can see a resurgence of big bores out of this!

The best way to keep the price down is to spread the word! Supply and demand and all that. Simple plastic ones can be sold for 5-7 cents apiece. If you want a coating, add 4 or 5 cents. If you want thick ones, say 6.5mm/ 375, and good accuracy with high velocity, we are talking an aluminum-magnesium alloy AND a coating...those will be expensive. The most expensive will be sabots you trap by shooting through a sheet on the back side of the chrongraph that will give peak chamber pressure when you retrieve them.

As near as I can tell, cheap and accurate means THIN, so we can just use high temp plastic. 308/338 and 338/375 are good bets for success. Think of them as high-tech patches, cause thats how they work. Probably 3 lengths to give best fit for different bullet length and chamber dimensions.

Are you telling me that you are going to put serial numbers on them? There are no legal requirements for that or other tagging.Can you quote and federal law that requires you to even deal with them I would like to know the staute. The free flow of Muzzling loading sabots should give you a Idea on how you handle yours. Center fire sabots have no more restritions them the muzzleloading kind.-----------------------------------------------------------I respect the work the BATF does also they have done a find job with Ruby ridge Wako and others violating people 2nd rights-----------------------------------------------------------------------Good luck how about a 416 to 375 or 338 sabots I am up to buying some.

Not serial numbers per se, just an imprint on the base of the bullet that ties it to the sabot. There is no statute now, but it may be within the administrative authority of one or more federal agencies to promulgate rules that would cover sabots. This, of course, would only occur if they became popular and commonplace which is the same condition we need to make it profitable. Business investment is all about risk...looking only at current laws and regs does not adequately account for the probability of government intervention. One can be morally correct, Constitutionally protected and broke at the same time. That's just the way it is in any market that is regulated or has the POTENTIAL to become regulated.

375/416 sabots would be very effective as well...need 1 in 12 twist or better.

Sabot,

How do you think the sabots would go in rifles with a very long freebore like the 378 and 460 Wbys?

Mike

Ed,

Generally I see the sabot useful to drop the rifle's bullet by one "size": i.e. a 400 grain/.416 bullet from the .458 WM instead of the 500 grain/.458 bullet.

I am thinking that your sabot approach could bring a lot of .458 Win Mag rifles out of the closet by shooting lighter bullets (less recoil) that still have good sectional density (for penetration).

What would the compnent cost be for such a sabot?

thanks...jim

I hope you get up and running I thought sabots would be a great addition to the reloading community for a long time.

Sabot

Do you think they will likely be available as reloading components or only fitted to particuler bullets.

Eg I might want to use a 180 gr Barnes X in my .375

I wonder how much the sabot will need to match the bullet it was designed for eg it might be designed for a 225 gr .338 and not the shorter 180 gr ?

I get my Sabots off the Ammo truck. Oh, were you talking rifle caliber? I thought you meant Tank Main Gun rounds

Nitro
I was told at a gunshop before xmas that sabots are to be or have already been banned. Unsure wether this is a Vic or fedral thing.

Sounds like a great idea. If you can keep 'em accurate, you have a winner of an idea.

WOW!!...Thanks for all the interest. If we ignore the threat of regulation, and just focus on the variables of accuracy, materials, design and cost it is quite interesting:

1. Very thin Sabots, like 338/375 and 308/338, can be a coated high temp plastic and quite inexpensive while giving 1MOA accuracy in a 1 MOA rifle. Sabots and bullets could be bought separately.

2. Thicker Sabots, capable of driving light bullets very fast from 338 or 375 bores most likely will need to be a coated aluminum/magnesium alloy and at least 25 cents a piece. However, these would need to come pre-loaded with the bullets of your choice.

3. The coated alloy technology applied to the 338/375 and 308/338 thin Sabot approach, would be suitable in accuracy for 1000 yard competition, if they were allowed. With chambers designed to fit Sabots, rather than Sabots designed to fit chambers, they have the potential to turn a fairly inexpensive 1 MOA rifle into a 0.25 MOA rifle..., i.e., be MORE accurate than current full bore jacketed bullet technology.

You guys tell me, but I'm thinking that metal jackets are a DISADVANTAGE in target shooting. Remember we no longer need or want jacketed bullets to seal the bore and engage the rifling. That's history. Would not a high grade cast/plated and swaged bullet be better for target work anyway?

Also, thinking of hunting bullets, can you make them without jackets and still have them expand well and not come apart? Remember they have NO bearing surface and can be wasp shaped or whatever you want.