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Everybody is probably aware that Norma has a new manual out; or maybe not. They have included five big bore cartridges, two old classics and three newer classics to be. FWIW, here is a review I recently wrote on it:
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THANK you for the update. I sometimes like to check 'known loads' to see how much lawyering up has been going on. for example, the old 250 grain Nosler partion used to travel at 2700fps in the 338WM. Here is the new Norma data, including URP (aka Rel-17?) Bullet Nosler Partition 250 gr Bullet weight 16.2 g / 250 gr B.C 0.473 C.O.L 84.0 mm / 3.307" # 35644 Gunpowder - Charge Weight - - - -Velocity m/s - - Velocity fps Norma URP Max 63.0 // Min 60.0 - - 794 // 766 - - 2605 // 2513 63 grains is far too little for a 4350 or Rel-17 powder in the 338WinMag. I wouldn't want to go below 63 as a minimum load. But it's their manual and they can publish what they wish. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I can't remember the last time I even saw some Norma powder! It is also kind of hard for me to believe that with all the foreign manufacturers of powder, bullets, brass and ammunition, that they are not ready, willing, and able to step in to fill the void here in the U.S. Guess I'll go put my tinfoil hat back on! DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Norma 201, 202 and 203B recently arrived at the local emporium in Kentucky. Plenty of it here. I was shocked. | |||
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Norma has financial backing as a part of RUAG. Their new US distributor is Western Powders/Ramshot/Accurate. I particularly like URP and MRP. As noted in the review, N 203B is basically Reloder 15, without the lot to lot variances that plague R/L 15. | |||
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416 Tanzan, My pleasure. You are correct about the URP load not being the best for 250-grain Nosler Partitions in the 338 Win Mag. With that bullet I would be inclined to work up with MRP, and stop at pressure signs, 2,700 fps, 75-grains, or a nice tight round group; whichever comes first. There are a few curious cartridge work-ups in this manual. There are no listings with N 204, URP, or MRP for the 404 Jeffery; just an N 217 loading that duplicates original 1905 ballistics. In any case, this manual is pretty useful. I think the new distribution network is going to help matters a lot. For some very encouraging URP loads, look at the 30-06 listings for 165-grain and 180-grain bullets weights. Also of note are the 338 Win Mag loads featuring 225-grain bullets. | |||
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Lawndart Where might I pick one of the new manuals up? Any suggestions? | |||
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I bought some 203B as a less lot-to-lot-varialble form of RL-15. Thanks for the tip, Bro'Dart. So Norma-203B is "RL-15 Primo," and Norma-URP is "RL-17 Primo." That is also very good to know, URP is a very useful and highly efficient powder choice for many cartridges. Any other powder conversions from Norma to Alliant/RL seconds of which you know? I have the Norma Manual No. 1 edition, will be wanting the latest also. I see the Montana address on the Norma 203B cannister ... NORMA For Technical Information and Customer Service: www.westernpowders.com email: powder@midrivers.com (406)234-0422 Western Powders, Inc. Miles City, Montana 59301 MADE IN SWEDEN http://normapowder.com/ Lots of load data here, circa 2006, but not all of the new stuff: http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunit...cademy/Loading-Data/ The .375 Weatherby Magnum loads here are well lawyered and still interesting enough: http://www.norma.cc/en/Ammunit...75-Weatherby-Magnum/ | |||
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So is the recent large variability in Alliant RL-10X due to it being a factory second of a Norma powder? If so, what powder might that be, Norma 201 or Norma 202? Norma 200 is the fastest rifle powder they make, could that be a RL-7 equivalent? | |||
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Does Alliant get all of their powder as 'seconds' from Norma, or do they, too, get their R-17 direct from Switzerland? However, the 'lawyering' question is more important for interpreting data. Does anyone have a manual (Lyman, Sierra, Speer) from the early 1980's? I seem to remember loads of IMR 4350 around 70 grains with 250 grain bullets in .338Win Mag. If that is the case, I find it hard to take a recommendation of 63 grains of URP (a wee bit slower than 4350), seriously as a max load. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Ron, I think these are supposed to be the equivalents: N200 = RL-7 N201 = RL-10 N202 = RL-12 N203 = RL-15 N205 = RL-19 MRP = RL-22 though I understand it's 'loose' as the Alliant RL powder are most likely 2nds rather than an overproduction. Tanz, I understand that Alliant does get their RL-17 powder directly from Switzerland. I also understand that RL-17 is the only RL powder that is batch-to-batch consistent. And guys, this information is all 'internet' information so take it for what it's worth... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Actually, I think that R-17//URP is about ideal for the 338WM because the WinMag doesn't have the overcapacity of the H&H cases or the RUM cases or the Rigby cases. I would expect the URP powder to produce 2700fps without pressure signs, since 4350 used to do that in the 1980's for 250grains in 338WM. My guess is that the Norma manual stopped the URP powder with the 338WM 250 NP at under 60k pressure. Or perhaps they are aware of some "fast" batches of URP/R17 and must plan accordingly? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The Reloder to Norma (Bofors) equivalency is getting murkier for the faster Norma powders. I am not sure which Norma branded powder corresponds to AR Comp I am GUESSING N-202. I think (a process that usually turns out badly) that the issue with URP with the 250-grain Partition is that the 250-grain bullet is heavy for bore size; much like a 200 or 220-grain bullet in the 30-06. You have me curious (another drive of mine that invariably leads to disaster) about this 250-grain in 338 Win Mag. I will have to borrow a rifle in the spring, and do a little test loading. Capo, Thanks for the equivalency information. One change is that Norma no longer markets an N 205. Their N 204 is roughly equivalent to RL-19. One addition is Norma N 217. That is equivalent to R/L-33. I will stop being a water-carrier after one last thought. Norma tends to use powders from the same big lot for their commercial loading & canister sales operations. That is unusual in these industries. | |||
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Thanks, y'all. QuickLOAD is showing Norma 200 to be faster than, but close to RL-7. I want some N-200. Good substitution. Of course the local emporium only has 201, 202, and 203B right now. Powder dribbles in there randomly in 100 pound shipments, catch-as-catch-can-nister of powder. Hopefully the RL-17 is not "seconds." | |||
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Been using Ar-comp in 308, also works in 416RM. | |||
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Norma 217 is a their replacement for MRP-2, which they no longer make, and N217 is roughly equivalent in burn rate to Re25. Re33 is roughly between Re25 and Re50 in burn rate. Re33 was developed for the 338 Lapua Magnum (and the like) for relatively heavy bullets - that is, ~250 grs or better. Re50 was developed for the 50 BMG - very slow burning. I'm often puzzled by reloading manuals - the data is very conservative (likely for liability reasons) and contradictory with other manuals...who do you believe...??? My experience fits much better with Quick Load, which I use to begin my load development. | |||
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