Larry-It holds about 630 gr of 5010 BMG powder.A 90%

load of that(570) would get those velocities.IE go to a slower less dense powder.The huge bores are great for

slower surplus powders, and you save some bucks on powder.

As for bullet wt, using a 3000 gr will do the job.

As for 32lbs being manageable depends on the shooter.

I would have it heavier for me for offhand shooting.

All my bench chrono testing has a heavy tripod locked to the barrel.Ed.

So are we talking about a 50-65lbs. gun, or heavier Mr. Hubel?



Larry A.

For heavy loads, 50 lbs for me offhand.This caliber can
get over 40,000 ft lbs if hopped up a little, so got to have wt.You keep it down to 18-20,000 ft lbs then a 26-30
lb gun will do..Ed.

Try this recoil calculator mate. Just whack in the values you want
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm
For comparison the 460wby gets around 100ftlbs recoil.
The old style safari 4 bores stayed below 25lbs weight and 160ftlbs recoil.


Karl.

Got these pics from Big Al, of his huge 4 bore pump.
Built in Russia.We are going to get him some brass made
from our wildcating stuff so he can shoot it.
THIS WOULD ALSO WORK FOR 700 HE, 12GA FH, 700 NE, 600 NE, 577 NE, NYATI,600OK, 8 GA, ETC.
It has front locking lugs,as seen in picture,
weighs 15 lbs, and I think it is neat.Where are there more of these??? This can take huge cases.Ed.

So Al finally did it.

Ed, what is the length of chamber?

The Tula 4 gauge, if that's what it is,

is listed at only 80mm from memory.







Karl.

I've seen a similar gun that was 23x75R, which works out to about .92" bore. Not sure what gauge that would be.

Where can we get one and are they legal in Australia ??

Karl here is a good basis for a .700 nItro mate

Karl--We will find out the exact chamber size in a couple weeks.And then we can build brass to fit.So far I have
seen specs for 4 bores, run from .935 bore up to 1.025.
If chamber is only 80 mm long we can build brass shorter,
or lengthen chamber to fit the length of the 4 bore brass
that we will make from 20 mm brass, which will be over 4.1
inches long.The Imperial 4 bore case Mickey has is 4.25
inches long.

Crazyquick--The way they build 4 bores sizes all over the place, that size I guess qualifies.

PC--They are a good base for all big cases for sure.D
I don't know where to find anymore of them.Ed.

chopper that thing down to a 20" barrel you've FINALLY found the perfect lion/leopard followup gun!!!

I love it

when will EAA be bringing them in?

jeffe

Jeff--Al says place in TN I think where he got it, can't

get them in anymore.Like you say maybe big outfit

like EAA could. We all start talking to them, who knows?

And with long barrel and 4 oz shot, what a goose gun!!Ed.

Ed,

Here are links from the last thread Al surfaced on.



First is the Tula arms plant

And second is the Importer in TN



http://ia.vpk.ru/vpkrus/homes/h109/index.htm

www.tennesseeguns.com



PC,

We have the same track mind buddy!

If coverted to a rifle it would be possible to bring in I would think.



I wonder if these guys would do custom orders if someone waves western dollars at them.



Karl.

Karl,

might be a cheaper way of getting a .700 Nitro and then that would truly be a Billy Ray Cyrus Classic mate

Not listed on the tula site as a product...

Ed, I was thinking more of $10 worth of quarters, for tapping a kitty on the nose, but 4oz of bizmuth would have some reach

jeffe

A 10lb. 4 gauge ought to kick a bit, eh?

George

Carcano-My computer doesn't have lanquage program for the site.And don't have upgrade disk.Does site have a good decription and specifications and/or measurements
of the shell size, or pictures of case? Does site list
any distributors here? Ed.

Ed, this is all they have-

" The shotgun is intended for amateur and professional hunting. The shotgun is non-automatic, with reloading by fore-end. The barrel is detachable. The barrel bore is chrome-plated. The bolt is of a sliding type. The cartridge is locked in the chamber by means of a turning bolt. The firing and trigger mechanism and feeding mechanism are mounted on a separate base plate. The tubular magazine is located under the barrel. The fore-end is movable. The shotgun has a non-adjustable sight of an open type. The stock and fore-end of the model ТОЗ-123-01 are made of iridescent walnut, the fore-end of the model ТОЗ-123 is made of plastic.

The shotgun has several versions of manufacturing. The outer surfaces are variously finished depending on the manufacturing version: from a small hand engraving to a high artistic engraving, chasing and wood-carving. To prevent an accidental shot provision is made for a button-type safety which is located in the front part of the trigger guard. The shotgun has also a safety to prevent a premature shot and opening of the barrel. The carbine may be provided with an optical sight.





Barrel 700mm

Chamber 81mm

Mag capacity 3

Trigger pull, N, 39-40

Mass-not over 4.5kg.



I first thought it was bullshit when I heard about it.

One link got posted a few times on various gun sites and turned out to be a web page for a computer game!

Then this link came up and people say they have the gun so, I guess its real.







Karl.

Karl- Thanks for info.They make a carbine too!!That chamber length is 3.18 inches, so it must be set up for about
3 inch paper or plastic cases.There are two now that I know off one 1100 miles away and on 450 miles away, and they are getting bore measured.I think that they were not called 4 bore in Russia, but a metric designation
as all 4 bores I have info on,are 4 inch chamber or longer.
The inporters called them 4 bores. And a few were sold
after importing but the gov, the other owner told me, wouldn't approve importing ammo.Have to check to see if fellas can take off barrel, then it is easy to
check chamber.If as others say the bore is 23 mm it could range from, .90 to .92 bore, about a 6 gauge size.

Carcano--I run internet with Win95 with pictures off,
because of a terrible phone line.So I haven't added any
language upgrades, to keep it simple.Ed.

Some more info about Tula 4 bore pump gun. Now the measurements we have found don't match the metric designation very close. I am wondering if someone
rebored and/or rechambered them..We found another one in
extreme NW upper Michigan.Will have some more pics to post later.He measured bore at .938.That is on the smaller end
of the scale for 4 bores.Ross's Evans is .975 and
Mickey's Imperial bullet is .983.
His is smooth bore. The choke
measures .888, which makes it quite a tight full choke.
Barrel is removable and the 4 locking lug bolt, locks into
the end of the barrel extension. All one piece with the barrel.You could build NE calber barrels and with that locking system, run bolt action pressures. Chamber is cut almost straight for paper or plastic case.About 1.050 for base and about 1.040 neck.Will get accurate measurements next couple weeks.He also had a brass case in his collection that was different than Mickey's
Imperial case, and wouldn't fit his gun either.He and Al both need cases, and getting these sizes sorted out so we can build cases from 20mm brass, that can fit them and others, is really interesting.Ed.

Got a picture from Mike of gun with barrel slid out of reciever and you can see the integral barrel extension. and the lugs on the bolt that lock into extension.Ed

Maybe this thread is the answer to the one about what to take whaling.

Bolt lock up just like a Winchester M1300! Sorry Ed, but that isn't a high pressure action.

George, to be exact the specification says the shotgun will not weigh more than 9.9 lbs. I would suspect that ol' boy kicks about like a 4 pound 12 gauge shooting 3.5" turkey loads. Oughta be downright pleasant.

Scott

I said it is good for higher pressures in cases that

have a lot less base size.Examples would be a 577NE with base area of

.28 sg inches, compared to the base area of 4 bore, on

Mickeys Imperial case, of .93 sg in.

The locking system is huge, but to run higher pressures

in 4 bore sizes, will need a heavier barrel and extension.

It still is only a shotgun thickness barrel, but if barrel

for a much smaller cal is made it would be thicker sided.

And a 4 bore barrel could be had, that could be made much

thicker.Like .4 inch bigger diameter.Up to the top of

the step shoulder that buts up to reciever.You can see it in the picture.I saw the specs about

the wt, and it needs to be heavier, which is easy to do.

Especialy if they get a new heavier barrel.The chamber is

screwball paper case size, and to go 4 bore brass, a

rechambering may be needed and a heavier new barrel,

to take decent pressures, if they want more than paper

case pressures and a good case to chamber fit.Preliminary measurements show that paper case at mouth was .050 thick and brass cases are .020 on the one I built...Ed.

Got first 4 bore case made------
Here is pic of one---It is 4th in the picture.For Karl's
friend I included a 30-06 1st for comparison, 458 Win
2nd, 700 HE 3rd, 4 Bore 4th, and 1000 HE last.This 4 Bore
case is .975 bore(Can be made from .935 to 1.025),Rim is 1.160 inches, and .85 in thick for headspace.Neck 1.015.
Base is 1.078 and can't go smaller without big 2 inch dies
and hydraulic press(Huge investment).Ross' Evans is .975.
Millar's is smaller, and Mickey's Imperial is .983.
Al and Mikes Tulas are .938 -------- I favor on all new ones going to 1.000, so as to get closer to actual 4 bore size and it is the easiest size to make,
from the brass. This being made from 20mm, is tough drawn brass that will last a lifetime.Ed.

Both the 4 gauge shotgun and 4 bore rifle cartridges are CIP standardized, so one would be well advised to adhere to the specifications in newly made ammo. I suppose that the Russians do so, too.

Carcano

I don't think Russians did as the measurements from the Tulas don't match any cases, or descriptions
that folks have reported measurements on here or other forum, or sent me by email.The Russian metric length is short also.Like Ross' Evans, he says it is only size like it.Or the Imperial case from Australia, which fits a small number of guns made by London guns.
Myself and most wanting guns are interested in brass cases.
And to make brass cases for paper-cased chambers, means you must use machined cases instead of stronger drawn cases.
IE to make neck thick enough.And no one wants to pay
35 bucks for machined case, that a fella on other forum
found a place to buy.
Where could I find the CIP specs for brass cases?I found some old 1906 paper case specs, from an old book, but they don't even match COTW chart...So it is time for some
sensible drawn brass specs, big enough to be close to the
actual 4 bore definition, but yet have reasonable priced strong brass?.And with what I am proposing there is a
big supply of brass...Ed.

Great pic Ed! By the way, what bullet brand is it you have in the 700cal photos?

Karl.

Karl-That 700 bullet is a 1000 gr DKT. I don't know if

there are anymore around. DKT isn't in bullet making anymore

as Chuck is gone..

The big cases do look great.If we can get a bunch of

folks building 4 bores all same size, I will show any who are interested how to make cases from 20mm brass, as well as make them myself.And do it using ammomaster type presses,

no hydraulics needed,using 1.5 inch dies,annealing, expanders, a little lathe work,

and polishing.Ed.

Ed,
I wondered why DKT had not answered my enquiries on 700 bullets.

When you say people building 4 bores do you envisage on the Tula 4 gauge or do you have some other action in mind?
I emailed Borchardt about whether they could scale something to handle the case but they have not got back to me yet.
The hi-wall they have is already massive but I assume it is too small for a 4?

Karl.

Karl--I think the Borchardt is big enough for 4 bore,
with a little work.This is info from what I could figure out from their brochure, and the pictures.It is a third bigger than needed for BMG based cases like my 700 HE.
And as for Tula, Big Al wants it to handle
decent 4bore pressures and be closer to true 4 bore than it
is now.. And we will know after measuring
it, whether that means a heavier barrel.There is another guy wanting to build 4 bore single barrel break action.
And if we can standardize specs, using easy to get strong brass, that is easy to rework, I am sure there will be more
wanting to build them.Ed.

Well count me in too Ed. I may even wait out on the 700 nitro now....damn I hate when that happens.
I remember a thread that Fritz was on he said he may be able to scale up actions(ruger no.1?) to handle it as well. Maybe he will chime in on that note.

Karl.

Such interesting thoughts! I recall a chap from Down Under showing off a break-open 4 bore at a SCI convention right after the Aussie Lefty Sissy parliament did the dumb-dumb on firearms there. It was stubby and heavy and came with two barrels, rifled and smoothbore. It seemed like a truly serious answer to the question of hunting in the Nothern Territories. Magpie geese and water buff. BOOM!!

Karl--John(fritz454) is going to go with a Borchardt
for his 12GA FH for now, as he says he doesn't have time
to do action, with all the bullet and case work he is doing.

Sarge-- We need to find more about that 4 bore break
single barrel action, as
There is fella here that wants to build one. Anyway to get ahold of him I wonder?Ed.

Ed,
Well now, that's a true poser. I guess the best idea would be to contact all the buff hunting outfitters in the NT or perhaps get hold of the Big Bore Club down there. Someone ought to remember the beast and the short, stocky little dude that built it. Unfortunately, I have told you everything I remember . . . and I have a good memory!

That's not the 4 bore single made by John Saunders and co is it? I don't have his contact details anymore but I think the member ExpertShooter does, and also Mickey1.




Karl.

If Saunders & Co is Aussie and Saunders himself is about 5'5", balding and well-fed, that's probably your man. He had it all set up with a wooden traveling box that carried both barrels. Damned thing looked like it should have wheels and would be good to start a Trans-Pac yacht race!

Ed

I heard a rumer the other day that ruger is making a large single shot action for a gunsmith in the states. I will try to talk to the person monday who told me that and find out where he got that information.

Here is a source for cases.
http://www.rvow.com/Fired%20cases.htm

RNS