I originally posted my question on the Gunsmithing Forum. Mingo suggested the Big Bore Forum to be a better fit for my question. Thank you Mingo.

I am considering the purchase of a Winchester M70 chambered in .416 Remington Magnum or a Ruger M77 Magnum chambered in .416 Rigby. My focus is to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the M70 action compared to the M77 action. I would appreciate technical discussion and recommendations.

Buliwyf
To confuse the issue, I'll throw in the cz in 416 as well, as it deserves attention as well, and I have access to all three.

all of them have acceptable triggers, with a little work

m70 416 rem -mine $850 stock
had to restock after the second scope cut, as it's at least 1 inch to short and 1# too light.
Feeds perfectly, will single feed with reasonable effort, new ones have fantastic finish, good balance, worst trigger of the lot, but not bad at all. Original stock truely meant for scope, and it's iron sights are the worst. Perfect safety mechanism, IMO. I had to add weight, in the form of a merc tube (that I am about to remove) to get the weight I wanted. softest recoil.
4 down, 1 up.

m77 416 rigby -will's $1250 stock
QUARTER RIB- way sexy, best looking wood, decent trigger, nice nice nice balance, zero effort to feed, no work required, bedding could be better, seems to just absorb recoil at 2400. can carry all day... did I mention it feeds great? Will was charged by a hog, 3 shots in about 9 seconds.. all hit. Best iron sights, due to rib.
3 down

cz550 416 rigby -richards $600 stock
I hate the stock, just my opinion. This can be fixed for whatever you want to spend on the wood... $150 for lam, upto $500 for nice english. But I take this as part of the deal. call it $750 and put a lam on it. Required tuning to feed right, required stoning the boltways to operate like a ruger or win, worst safety, IMO, of the bunch, as I hate trigger slide safties, I like the set trigger, and I can tune the reg for about 2.5#. hard to find detach rings, nicely executed sights, decent LOP, 14.25 to 14.5, ugliest wood, to boot. i think the barrel is too long, and it kicks the hardest.

If the winchester had the quarter rib, it would be a perfect action, and just requires replacing the stock to fit (me).

If you wanted, You could buy a cz550 in 416 rigby, and I would trade you, for a m70 in 416 rem, for nostalgia sake.

Jeffe

I have both the Mod.70, and Ruger 77, and of the two, prefer the Ruger. The trigger came from the factory set at 3 1/4 pounds, with no creep. The stock is decently figured, with nice, straight grain. It points well, and recoil in the 416 Rigby is totally manageable. It feeds perfectly, and is very accurate. The only 2 negatives I've encountered with it are the lousy, thin, hard recoil pad(since replaced with a Decelerator Pad),and the front sight which is way too small. This I replaced with a NECG fiber optic sight. Go with the Ruger 77.

Whatever turns your crank. They are all fine guns.

I have all three of the suggested bolt guns.

My Ruger M77 Magnum in 416 Rigby is an older fat barrel model that is the most accurate rifle I have. 0.147" for 3 shots at 100 yards. The new slim barrels are svelt. The stock design is the best of the lot, a best compromise for both express sights and scope. About 9.5 lbs. bare, for the 0.725" barrel. 10.75 lbs. bare, for the 0.810" barrel I have.

My Winchester Safari Express in 416 Remington has the new negative drop stock. It is fine with a scope and works O.K. with express sights. The stock design, with its huge butt pad, and 416 Rem. chambering, will be best for those sensitive to recoil. About 1 MOA for three shots, out of the box. Weight is 9.1 lbs. out of the box/bare.

The CZ 550 Safari Magnum I have has the hogback stock that is nicely figured walnut, found occasionally from the factory. Muzzle diameter is 0.666", as light as you can go, IMHO. 3/4 MOA. 8.75 lbs. out of the box. It is a wonderful piece that is similar to the original Rigby/Oberndorf 416 Rigby rifles in overall balance and heft. I would like to change the safety to a 3-position one. Otherwise it is perfect as is. It is excellent with it's express sights and O.K. with a scope, regarding the hogback stock.

The Ruger 416 Rigby has a funny bedding system, but it works. It can be repaired if it cracks the stock.

Take these comments with the comments from others above, which are valid also.

I like them all.

DaggaRon,

Are there other differences between the older M77 and a new M77 other than barrel diameter? Is the lighter barrel,0.725", an improvement or cost saving measure over the 0.810" barrel you have?

The 0.147" group is increbible! My compliments to the rifleman! If you were using optics, what were the scope and rings you used?

Best regards

Buliwyf,
The first fat barreled ones had the swivel base on the forearm. That quickly changed to barrel band sling swivel base thereafter, just like the slim barrel version, created by the call for a lighter barrel.

My scope was a Leupold in Ruger Rings, on the 5X setting of the 1.5-5x. Lucky ,and an accurate rifle.

I have never seen a Ruger M77 MkII Magnum with a sling mount in the forearm. If you really have one Ron Berry post a pic please, or tell me what your serial number is less the last two digits.

The Ruger is pretty on the outside, and I love the barrel, but the bedding system IS TERRIBLE! The Winchester is the better way to go from a durability stand point. The bedding system of the Winchester is infinitely better than the Ruger.

That said you can spend about $200 (guesstimate)and get the Ruger "fixed". This is the approach I took to fix my HEAVY BARREL VERY EARLY FIRST PRODUCTION RUN RUGER M77 MkII MAGNUM.

Installed a custom made recoil "lug" which is sandwiched between the barrel and the receiver. This is essentially the Remington/Savage approach.

Next, I machined a dovetail into the rib on the bottom of the barrel (this is a second rib diametrically opposed to the one with the sights in it) and installed a barrel mounted recoil lug. Therefore, I replaced the POS Ruger recoil plate which was located in the forearm of the stock.

Finally I pillar bedded the action in a NEW stock.

The new stock is the way one fixes the cracked factory stock, BTW. My stock cracked badly after 100 rounds. The crack started at the front action screw split through the magazine mortise, and then allowed the action to wedge the tang and split the pistol grip.

A very good alternative, if you can stand the looks of a hogback stock, is the CZ550. If I were shopping for a 416 Rigby I think I would buy the CZ myself.

Anyway, if you want any more details of the Ruger conversion send me a PM.

Jeffe - Isn't it amazing how Todd E pretends someone gives a damn what he thinks? This boy lives in a bigger fantasy world than Harry Potter.

Is Buliwyf your latest identity, Todd?

[ 11-19-2002, 19:39: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

POSeur,
You are showing your stupidity.
There are magazine articles in my file of reviews of the Ruger 416 Rigby when it first came out showing photos of a forearm sling swivel base, similar to how the old pushfeed 458 WinMag Ruger was.

If you look on the cover of Ed Matunas' book, sorry as it is, Modern African Adventures , you will see him holding a Ruger 416 Rigby with no barrel band sling base, and other pictures in the book showing a stock mounted sling on his 416 Rigby Ruger.

In April 2002, Nickudu posted a picture of a Ruger 416 Rigby with stock mounted forend sling base in a thread called "Uganda Enclave." A Zimbabwe "tooth fairy" PH was holding this rifle over his shoulder and grinning about a massive tusker in the background.
The thread is still in archives, but the photo is gone. Maybe we can get Nickudu to bring it back. I would love to see it again.

My rifle is of later fat barrel production and has the sling swivel base on a barrel band beyond the forearm tip.

I believe you are imagineering your imaginary Ruger.

You post a picture of yours and I will post one of mine. In fact, you can see pictures of it posing with a cape buffalo in Botswana if you click on my web page in my profile. Take a look at the Pre-64 Winchester actioned 375 H&H featherweight too.

I have posted pictures here lately of a 375 RUM and two 510 JAB rifles. You have never posted anything, except to steal web photos of other's.

This is getting tedious again.

Change your wicked ways, CREEP!

[ 11-19-2002, 22:45: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Is everyone in agreement that the M77 has serious bedding design flaws or is the bedding problem related to quality control?

Is there agreement that the M70 has a much preferred bedding design than the M77?

Does the M70 have intrinsic engineering impediments not seen on the surface?

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. Your answers are important to my final purchasing decision.

Buliwyf

Here's a better view of it...



Canuck

Canuck,

Would you mind sharing the serial number with us?

Buliwyf,

Sorry for participating in/perpetuating the hi-jack of your post. I hope you get the technical answers you are looking for.

I have a Mod 70 in 375 H&H and the Ruger pictured above in 470 Mbogo.

I like both rifles a lot and have nary a negative thing to say about either. FWIW, I think the workmanship and quality is much higher on the Ruger, but you do pay for it.

If I had to sell one tomorrow, it wouldn't be the Ruger, if that means anything.

470Mbogo (a regular poster here) could tell you what he felt about the bedding on the Ruger. As far as I know it was fine while it was a 416 Rigby, although I know he reinforced it following its re-birth as a 470. Its held up pretty well under the abuse since.

Canuck

Canuck, I completely understand. Is this rifle numbered below 100? You can PM the answer to me if you like, if not, again I understand. BTW, the sling stud is barrel banded. It is very obvious in the second pic. I have still never seen a rifle like yours.

Buliwyf,

I though I answered your questions in my original post:

Is everyone in agreement that the M77 has serious bedding design flaws or is the bedding problem related to quality control? The Ruger's bedding problems are due to DESIGN not quality control.

Is there agreement that the M70 has a much preferred bedding design than the M77?
The Winchester M70 (and the CZ550) has an INFINITELY BETTER bedding system than the Ruger.

Does the M70 have intrinsic engineering impediments not seen on the surface?
I am not exactly sure what you are looking for with this question. I would say that the only impediments that the M70 has are that it is really too short and the barrel shank thread too small in diameter for cartridges like the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs (and derivatives thereof). The bedding system, safety, and trigger are WORLD CLASS.

[ 11-20-2002, 05:06: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Thank you for commenting 500 AHR. I am surprised that an experienced company like Ruger has problems bedding a rifle. This is the type of "not obvious" problem I'm hoping to avoid. Sometimes all you have is the goodwill of a manufacturer's name to base a decision on. My goal is to make an informed purchase.

My question "Does the M70 have intrinsic engineering impediments not seen on the surface?" was intended to bring out technical problems like you pointed out with the Ruger M77 Magnum bedding system, if any, that a Winchester M70 chambered in .416 Remington Magnum might have. I think what you're saying is the M70 .416 Rem Mag is a rifle based on proven engineering design. The limitation of the M70 is that its action is too small for the larger case cartridges like the Rigby. Thanks for your help.

Best regards

500 Bullshitter - Maybe if you would offer your services and great wisdom to Ruger they could get it right. I KNOW that they would be eternally grateful.

If ONLY you had been around to advise people like Ackley and Browning! As a result the world has had to live with inferior design until now.

Please stop being so secretive and show us some of your incredible works.

[ 11-21-2002, 00:22: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

To All,
I think that Buliwyf may be 500 AHR, playing his straight man. Is this Todd E's fifteenth identity?

Now the POSeur is straining to say that the swivel base, though on the forearm, is also on a barrel band inletted into the stock (BTW, just like the pushfeed M77 458 as I tried to tell him without spelling it all out), so he is somehow less wrong, in his mind.

I must have been shooting Ruger rifles when the POSeur was just something that leaked through the latex or sheep gut that Todd E's dad was using.

Well I have had enough fun exposing 500 AHR as another POSeur alias. Time to ignore this one too and see what it turns into next.

Geez whatta CREEP!

Many thanks to everyone for your input! I know every comment was intended to help me make the best decision possible. I appreciate that very much. I have limited funds available for the purchase of a big caliber rifle so I wanted to do it right the first time. A friend of mine recommended this website to me. He told me you guys were the most knowledgeable Big Bore Riflemen in the world. My friend was absolutely right! You guys are the greatest.

Safety first,
Buliwyf

Bullwinkle - Is your "friend" named Todd? And does he look like this?

No, Pecos45, my friend that recommended this website to me is not named Todd, either first or last name.

Leave the guy alone, he isn't me, and I don't know who he is. If you don't believe it, have one of the moderators check his isp#. He is just some new member of the forum asking for help, be nice to him.

Buliwyf,
I do not have many friends on this site. I apologize for getting you entangled in the ongoing war between myself and others. Please do not let this chase you off the forum most of the posters here are good guys.

Pecos45: You are mistaken.

500 AHR: I placed my order today for a Winchester M70 chambered in .416 Remington Magnum. 500 AHR, Please don't let this chase you off the Forum. You are direct and detailed. I am new to this Forum, but not new to Committee discussions. It is great to have a forum to ask questions, but in the end you must think for yourself. Do not change just because of pressure from others if you believe in your advice.

Everyone: It is a privilege to be part of an elite forum of scholars. Many thanks.

I have a newer Ruger .416Rigby. I bedded the recoil plate to the stock. I make sure the action screws are kept tight. I have in excess of 250 rounds fired, 25 factory Federal, 225+ reloads (400gr Hornady RN, 105grs H4831SC). I had the action out of the stock 3 days ago and I have 0 cracks or splits.

You have to be smarter than the tool you are using.

I have a Ruger rechambered to 416Wby and recoil is much stiffer than that of original Rigby velocityies. It has in excess of 650 rounds through it at present and all I've ever done was tighten screws every 4-5 rounds. The recoil lug works fine, the recoil pad sucked though.

Mine is very accurate less than 3/4 MOA with 400gr XLC's and 115gr RL22 at 2690 fps. Shot a 3" 3 shot group at 700 yard last time I shot it. 4" at 500 yards though. My 300 Ultra has a hard time beating it. I have never heard of anyone having accuracy problems with theirs either, quite the opposite. I'll never sell mine. Just wish I would have left it the Rigby chambering with all the new loading data out.

Todd, go find another bunch of people to stalk you wierd $uck. I've had to wade through your crap on threads so much, my friend says he can end your little computer games, something about a back door.

My 77 .416 has a very highly figured piece of wood on it, in fact, one of the nicest factory stocks I have ever seen. Before I ever shot it I took the rifle apart and steel-bedded the recoil lug, action, and free floated the barrel. While I was in the neighborhood, I went ahead and steel-bedded the area around the front action screw. Guess what, the stock was already split from the angled front action screw to the mag well. I fixed the crack area with steel-bed. Several hundred rounds later and all is well. I do wonder what would have happened if I had shot the rifle with the stock already split from the factory. On the other hand, maybe I DON'T want to know. I suppose there is a lot of truth about highly figured wood, as the stock had split right along a dark vein running through the area.

Brent,
That is one mighty accurate Ruger you got yourself there.

Just how is you buddy going to get to my computer's back door? You do realize don't you, that threatening people on the internet is a Federal offense i.e. felony.

This is why I post around here! I just love to be threatened at every turn. Such wonderful people.

Buliwyf,
I hope the Winchester makes you happy. It would have been my choice too.