How fast can a 450 gn Woodleigh in a 404 Jeffery be loaded to?

With normal/reasonable pressures not maxing it out.

I see Norma lists it as 2150fps, is that all that can be reasonably expected?

I would think it could be run a bit faster than that, but was just wondering.

There doesn't seem to be much reloading info on the 404 with the 450 gn bullets around.

I was wondering what results folks were getting.

Allen

If anyone knows, it will be Von Gruf or Rusty.

I wonder if it would be wise to "speed" up what Norma has determined to be the proper velocity for the Woodleigh load.

Of course, the .404 is a big case and traditionally loads were slower than possible, perhaps due to various gun/chamber/barrel variations, but that's not my concern.

I believe that Woodleigh is pretty "velocity" conscious in developing bullets and even publishes suggested f.p.s. for their products.

I haven't checked for a while, but if Woodleigh says the 450 grain bullet is designed for a muzzle velocity of (say) 2000-2200 f.p.s., I bet they mean it.

I just went on the Woodleigh site. I was somewhat wrong on two counts.

First, the velocity criteria is "impact" velocity and not at the "muzzle" and secondly, there are no published velocity recommendations for "solids".... but I still would ask Woodleigh if the steel capsule will withstand higher. JMHO.

The numbers below (from the Woodleigh site) are product number, weight, style, # in box, sectional density, ballistic co-effecient, recommended velocity (note none for the solid) and length (I believe)


33B 450gr RN SN 50 .361 .360 1800-2200 1.416
34B 450gr FMJ 50 .361 .355 1.491

I was kind of wondering if it could be taken up to 2250fps MV without to much pressure.

Not that I think it wouldn't work at 2150fps but thought 2250 might give just a little more umph.

I am curious how the recoil would change from a 400 gn at 2300fps to a 450 gn at 2150fps to a 450 gn at 2250fps?

I have a 404 Jeffery being built by Steve Button. When it's done this would be a fun test project to test.

Actually Steve is also building 2 8x57 rifles for us. Plus I have to order the barrel for Heather's 10,75x68 now.

I will post some pics of the progress as soon as Steve sends me some pics.

I think the only thing he's waiting on is the front sights and rear sight sleeves.

Allen

If one was serious about utilizing a 450gr bullet in a 416-type platform, I would think the 416 Rigby or 416 Weatherby would be much better suited to the task. With their case capacity, cartridge OAL, and pressure ratings in modern actions, they could get closer to the Holy Grail of 2,400 fps, or even more in the Wby.

A MV of 2250 fps would be 2200 within a very short period.

A bit of slack exists in the impact velocities,
it's not set in concrete. I am pretty sure when Geoff tested the 416 and 404 Mk 2 bullets that he went above the RIV and my 404J was used for the tests. (All Woodleigh's are tested on big and small game).

When I tested bullets I normally went as far as possible above where we were aiming.

For what most people use, isn't a 400gn bullet big enough ? It's killed everything big I have aimed it at.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 500N:
A MV of 2250 fps would be 2200 within a very short period.
For what most people use, isn't a 400gn bullet big enough ? It's killed everything big I have aimed it at.[/QUOTE



Was the test rifle in the old standard 16in twist or in the newer 14in and would it make a difference.
I think that if one was to look past the proven 400gn, the results would hardly be noticable and I would rather look to bullet design in the 400gn weight. Just another niche that has been entered, needed or not.

Von Gruff.

A bit difficult to get consistent data from Norma in their 404J loadings and although they have published data for loads using their own 400gr Solid and the Woodleigh 347gr SN (yes not the Woodleigh 350gr made for the 404J), I have not come across any factory or handloading load data for the Woodleigh 450gr Solid and Soft as loaded in their PH ammunition.

Norma's maximum recommended loads for their 400gr Solid have a MV of 2398fps with N203-B powder and 2339fps with N204 powder.

With the Woodleigh 347gr SN they achieve 2556fps with N203-B and 2497fps with N204.

The line of ammunition Norma loaded for Parker Hale with a Norma 400gr Solid used N204 with the MV held to 2245fps.

Although the Mauser and most modern actions can be loaded up to pressure levels around 55,000psi I imagine that case head thrust is likely to be more of a consideration than just chamber pressure especially with myriad of converted Mauser military actions, many of whom are getting on in years and with unknown or perhaps inconsistent annealing and hardening.

Although I had ordered some of the Norma PH ammo for my own 404 I'm glad the shipment order for New Zealand missed the boat as on second thoughts those heavy 450gr Woodleighs would have been even more punishing in my light converted Type A.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:

Was the test rifle in the old standard 16in twist or in the newer 14in and would it make a difference.
I think that if one was to look past the proven 400gn, the results would hardly be noticable and I would rather look to bullet design in the 400gn weight. Just another niche that has been entered, needed or not.

Von Gruff.

Von Gruff

Not sure, it is a Thomas Bland Take Down 404, probably made in the 1920's.

.

The 450fmjs at a MV of 2150fps would be great Elephant bullets.
If you need more velocity then stick with the 400s would be my plan.

There is some loading data for the 404J with the Woodleigh 450gr at the following post.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043&m=9501098821

Origionally posted by Eurocentric


one of us

Posted 15 March 2010 22:57 Hide Post
CALIBER BULLET BRASS PRIMER POWDER LOAD



404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 450 gr SN Bell Brass Federal 215 Hodgdon H4831 SC 87 / 2160 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 450 gr SN Bell Brass Federal 215 Reloader 22 87 / 2125 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 450 gr SN Bell Brass CCI 250 Hodgdon H4350 82 / 2160 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 450 gr SN Bell Brass Federal 215 ADI 2213 SC 87 / 2160 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 450 gr SN Bell Brass CCI 250 ADI 2209 82 / 2160 fps

404 JEFFERY Northfork IMR-4831 95 / 2,653 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr Bell Brass Federal 215 Hodgdon H4350 82 / 2200 fps

404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 350 gr Bell Brass IMR 4064 80 / 2500 Fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 350 gr Bell Brass Hodgdon H4350 80 / 2500 Fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 350 gr Bell Brass IMR 4350 80 /
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 350 gr Bell Brass Hodgdon Varget 80 / 2500 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 350 gr Bell Brass 75

404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr Bell Brass CCI 250 IMR 4064 71 / ?
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr RWS IMR 4831 93 / 2450 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr Norma/RWS Federal 215 RL-15 75 / 2262 fps
404 JEFFERY IMR 3031 63 / 2100 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr Kynoch Federal 215 IMR 4831 93 / 2280 fps
404 JEFFERY Woodleigh 400 gr Norma IMR 4320 80 / 2300 fps
404 JEFFERY NorthFork 380 gr IMR-4831 83 gr
404 JEFFERY Barnes 400 gr SOL RL-19 & IMR-4831 84 gr
404 JEFFERY Barnes 400 gr TSX FB Norma Federal 215M IMR-4320 68.5 / 2091 fps
404 JEFFERY Barnes 400 gr TSX FB Norma Federal 215M IMR-4064 67 / 2100 fps
404 JEFFERY Barnes 400 gr TSX FB Norma Federal 215M RL-15 68 / 2107 fps
404 JEFFERY Barnes 400 gr BND SLD Norma Federal 215M Accurate 4064 73 / 2277 fps

Looking at the loads Eurocentric has posted in the 400gn weight, and these are in the conservative to moderate region, I would expect his 450gn loadings to be in the same range so for those that are loading the 400gn Bullet to 2300fps, I would think that 500N's asertion that 2200fps would become the comfort ceiling over anything more would be fairly close to the mark.

Looking at my recoil calculater at
http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

I see that the 450gn bullet at 2160fps over 82gn of 2209 in a 9 1/2 lb rifle would give a recoil energy of 54 ft/lbs and 19fps for recoil velocity

With the same rifle and the 400gn bullet at 2335fps over 84gn 2209 (my loading) there would be the same 54lb of recoil energy and recoil velocity of 19fps

Not sure I can see the need for anything other than the 400gn bullet a moderate 2200 - 2335fps which has been a proven recipe for over a hundred years. I had initially ordered a box of the 450gn Norma more to have a sample box than anything else but like Eagle, I was not dissapointed when the shipment didn"t arrive. I still think it is a solution looking for a question.

Von Gruff.

Actually the more I read here and think about it, I really don't need to go with a 450 gn bullet.

I guess really, what can a 450 gn kill that a 400 gn can't kill regardless of shot angle. Not shot placement but angle as far as getting to the goo parts.

The 400 gn has a SD of .321 compared to .305 for the 286 gn 9,3 and 300 gn .375.

These two calibers are known for good penetration providing good bullets and correct velocities for the bullets.

So I guess 2250 to 2330 fps should get anything done that needs getting done!

Though if one was using a solid like the Woodleigh the 450 gn might hit a bit harder I guess.

Allen

IMHO, A 400gn might go end to end on a Buffalo,
whereas a 450gn is more likely to.

A bit like the 286 gn versus the 320 gn out of a 9.3.

The heavier weight does make a diff in penetration, as to whether it kills any better,
they all seem to die if the bullet is in the right spot.

I'll leave others to comment on it's use for Elephant.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
IMHO, A 400gn might go end to end on a Buffalo,
whereas a 450gn is more likely to.

A bit like the 286 gn versus the 320 gn out of a 9.3.

The heavier weight does make a diff in penetration, as to whether it kills any better,
they all seem to die if the bullet is in the right spot.

I'll leave others to comment on it's use for Elephant.

.

Norma and RWS 400gr solids at about 2,200fps out of my Mauser did go side to side, end to end, and shoot through on several big aussie bull buffalo. Only solid I recovered was one that had gone from brisket to rear hip and was stuck right in the ball and socket of the joint. It had done its thing nicely by the time it arrived at the rear hip so didn't matter if it exited or not. If taking the 404J on elephant I would be more concerned about me getting it on target rather than whether the cartridge would do the job which has been proven over and over again in the 100 + years the 404 has existed.

Faced with a charging elephant, I'm sure with tightened butt cheeks and a steady eye I could be relied on to place that 400gr where it matters.

eagle

Sorry, I was referring to SN bullets.

Yes, FMJ's would definitely do it.

I think you are kidding yourselves if you think a Woodleigh 400 grain RN will go the full length of a Buff.
I am running them in my 404 at 2275 fps and am getting them back out of pigs end on.

I don't personally need a 450 grain in my 404 Jeffery.

Nice photos Fatboy404, really dig that Woodleigh and that 404 of yours.

I think your porkers must have a bit of internal armour don't you reckon?

Of course as 500N corrected me above, he was talking of soft nose where I was espousing the beauty of FMJs. I did use a couple of original Kynoch SN on buffs but can't recall which ones and wasn't looking for recovery. Too busy cutting up meat and swatting those damn biting flies.

Nothing ran off so they must have done the job. Was not so into the finery of shooting and performance back in those days, just so long as I hit where I pointed and the animal hit the deck then and there or a least didn't scarper off anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Nice photos Fatboy404, really dig that Woodleigh and that 404 of yours.

I think your porkers must have a bit of internal armour don't you reckon?

I reckon some do, especially when the bullet opens up a bit like
in the photo and then hits the skin at average / low velocity.
1/2 - 1 inch of fat/gristle/skin to get through with a very flat
front end. Makes it hard on the bullet.

You often see the skin on a Buff, pig stretch out about 1 foot and then
bounce back - and sometimes the bullet petals just poke through.

.

Eagle27.
I think you are right.Sometimes we learn too much.
There has been thousands of Buff shot with the old Kynoch projectiles but by todays standards they are poor.I bought 400 of the 400 grain Kynochs for my 404 because they were cheap.
Here are some I have recovered.

Thanks for posting the photos FB404. That's fine accuracy and actually pretty good setup of the SN Kynochs.
I presume the bullets that have lost the core would have still done well as the core would have carried on to do its job. Perhaps not so good if taking shoulder shots through heavy bone.
At least with that accuracy you can shoot between the ribs