May I use the same powder (and the weight from the load manuals) as for jacketed bullets if I want to shoot gas-checked/lubed Cast Bullets at full velocities? (e.g. 416Rem at full velocities - 2350fps/400gr. through 2600fps/335gr.)The bullets are heat-treated and are rated 21-22 BHN.



Any input is appreciated.



Art

Hi, Art. It's me again!

I don't have a whole lot of .416 experience with different powders in the two-role mode, i.e.: same powder for both cast and jacketed bullets.

However, my initial effort in that direction turned out so well that I've never seen the need to go further. This was with the .416 Rigby, but I'll bet it would work fine in Remington's .416 too.

IMR 4831 has given me great results with every bullet I've tried in .416. This included the RCBS 365-grain cast bullet, the 400 Hornady RN, the 300-325-400 X bullets, and the 350 Speer. I suspect 4350 would do as well, but haven't tried it.

105 grains of IMR 4831 under the 365 cast bullet runs 2500-2600 fps in my #1, the 300 "X" nibbles hard at 3000 fps with the same load, and the 400s easily reach 2550 or more with somewhat less powder. I'd say IMR4831 does just fine in the .416 dual-purpose role, as long as you want POWERFUL loads. For reduced speeds, I would definitely NOT reduce the 4831 loads very much. There are better powders for that, including such numbers as 4895, 4198, and a bunch of other mid-rate powders.

M1Tanker,



As Hubel said, the trick is in the heat treatment. For example, Beartooth bullets are heat treated and their bullets are 21-22 BH (Brinnel hardness). And they claim their bullets will not lead-foul at rifle velocities. I want to believe that and I'll try their bullets soon.

I have tried shooting full house loads behind gas checked/ hard cast / lubed bullets in my 45/90. (Browning 1885 High Wall Creedmore BPCR) lets just say it wasnt pretty. The leading was beyond terrible after just 5 rounds. And accuracy was terrible. (recoil was no joke either) I had a heck of a time getting all the leading out. I cant remember the exact load I used but the bullet was a 475gr flat nose @ 2120 fps. I dropped the velocity down to just under 1800 and had no problems and great accuracy. If anyone has a solution around the leading I would love to hear it.

Hi Bruce, thanks again.



For my 416Rem, since it uses faster powders than the Rigby, I would use a mid-charge (between min and max) of the powder toward the slow burning end of the powder group shown in the loading manual for 416Rem. Or should I use a powder toward the faster burning end? I know the cast bullet will have less neck tension compared to jacketed bullet, so which one is more suited? Faster burning or slower burning powder? What do you think?



I know some reloaders may raise an eyebrow at this, since some maintain that powder charges intended for jacketed bullets should not be used for cast bullets. But I'm very inclined to do it.

How did you avoid the leading issue? I have never been able to get past 1800 FPS without leading. And the bullets are cast stinking hard. How was your accuracy?

I agree on the water quencing (wheelweight lead) straight from the mold. I have had good results with LBT Blue lube, and Hornady gas checks. Used all of these things in my 30-40 Krag at full speed (2200fps/212gr), up to twenty rounds at a time without any problems.



When my Lott gets home I will work on cast loads for it.



Hog Killer

BruceB, thank you so much for taking the time to spill your experience on cast bullets. That's (more than) enough indeed!!!

That and the two books that JCN recommends, I'm ready to go for it (after I order a "slug it" kit). Well, I have a choice of .417 or .418 diameter bullets - which one should I try first? Just can't wait for that egg sinker/slug - can I use a .41-in. fishing sinker? Maybe I'll get patient and get the books first, read them, get the bore slugged, and THEN order the correct diameter bullets and any other supplies accessories I may find out that I need.

Thank you all who have contributed to this post!!!

Art

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[quoteM1Tanker, I think you probably used bullets that were a tad undersize for your throat or groove diameter. If you get ANY gas blow-by, it melts lead alloys of ANY hardness, causing awful leading! The first time I tried cast bullets in my first HP rifle, an '06, I sized my bullets to .308" and leading was just horrible! The bullets were cast of Linotype, so it was pretty hard. When I started sizing my bullets to .311" instead of .308", the leading stopped!

---

Thanks for the tip. I have been wanting to get the performance like you guys are talking about but it just wouldnt work for me. I will try the quenching also to see if that helps. I have tried SPG, Lyman Gold, and Lyman Moly lubes and had the same results. I next batch I cast I will try the quencch and lube size a little bigger. i would love to get higher velocities and see how the rifle likes them.

Gents;

We cast-bullet nutz have identified a number of factors.

1. SLUG THE BORE. Push a soft lead slug LARGER than bore diameter through your clean, lightly-oiled barrel (preferably from chamber to muzzle) and measure the slug's diameter carefully. You may be surprised. This is one major reason why store-bought cast bullets often do not work well in a given rifle, namely, the diameter is wrong.

2. Use bullets LARGER than bore diameter by at least a thousandth or two. Many of my best .30-caliber loads, for nominally .308" barrels, are .311" or even larger in a few cases.

3. Super-hard alloys are not really necessary but can help in some cases. My high-speed loads usually use bullets cast from straight wheelweight metal and the bullets are dropped directly from the mould into cold water, which quench-hardens them enough to do the job.

4. Use good lubricant. 50/50 Alox lube from a variety of sources is quite reliable, and so are a few others. Felix lube (a home-made recipe) is great. I much prefer softer lubes rather than the hard types which require heat to apply. This is not just a convenience issue, because I believe the softer ones work better. The lubes that are applied to most commercial bullets seem to be pretty poor, although my experience with them is limited...I DO make my own, after all....

5. Gas checks are virtually essential for higher-speed rifle loads, and good results come easier with bigger bores as well (i.e.: over .30 is better than under .30). Hornady crimp-on checks are superior to Lymans in my experience.

So, with a properly-sized, properly-lubed, properly hardened and gaschecked bullet, you should be all set....except that the powder charge has to be compatible, and for full-power loads I like to use the slowest-burning powder that will give me the speed desired. This minimizes the forces applied on ignition, and hopefully gives a longer, smoother acceleration to the bullet. This is a place where some of the slower surplus powders really shine, and the lower prices help too when burning 80 or 100 grains per round!

It seems desireable to seat the cast bullet out to touch the rifling origin, or even to have it engraved by the rifling a few thousandths. This ensures it will have a straight start into the bore, and lessens the time that gases can try to get around it. It is gas blowby which generates most leading, it seems. If one wants to feed rounds from the magazine, obviously the seating-out will be limited by magazine length.

It's usually easier to get decent accuracy with flatpoint and roundnose bullets. Those slinky spitzers look cool, but often take a lot of experimenting before decent groups are obtained ....if ever!

If there's much space left in the case, consider a dacron filler. I know I said on another thread that I often don't use such if the charge is much over 50% of capacity, but there are some times when it helps. I have a strong hunch that dacron reduces leading tendencies, but I can't honestly SAY that this true, because frankly my loads don't often exhibit any leading at all, which makes the theory difficult to test.

(Whew! Is that enough for now?

Pressure levels= BHN x 1422= psi level,BHN 21x 1422= 29,862.
I use water drop/ww BHN 24-28 I use these in a 375GNR TC Encore with 14"bbl-245gr lfngc w/FWFL lube at 2400 with NO leading,accuracy is NOT were it should be.I have shot .375-290gr at 2000 fps with decent accuracy and NO leading.
Sean

Sean, that means beyond 29,862psi I run the risk of leading or gas-leaks?

In your water-dropped BHN 24-28 375GNRs, do you use gas-checks?

eldeguello, I have 2 choices for .416Rem bullets to try: .417 or .418 diameter bullets. Without having the barrel slugged first, which one would be better to try first?

Yes I always use gas checks.
In theory beyond 29,862 BHN 21-CB will begin to show signs of overpressure.
Sean

You can get high velocities with cast hard and heat treated
lead bullets. Must be heat treated in my experience, and lubes and gas checked. In my 458 HE, I got
some heat treated Fusillier 400 gr 458 bullets up to 3200 fps with no leading...Ed.

I've had a great deal of experience with hard cast bullets in big bores. Everything from the .338 win to the .600 OK-1. I use Linotype alloy exclusively with Gas checks and a good lube. In large bore rifles, I've had inconsistent results with softer alloys quenched in cold water and since I have a super supply of Linotype don't bother with other trying to harden other lead alloys anymore. I try to avoid sizing if possible and ALWAYS slug the bore and use a bullet that drops from the mold approx. .001-.002 oversize. In recent years, I've found SPG to be a great lube. Remember that Alloys like Linotype will reach full hardness after 2-3 days after casting, so don't shoot them before then. I've seen only minimal if any leading at pretty decent velocities using this recipe.-Rob

The 458 bullets I tested were about 37 bhn.Good for 50k.
A couple thousands oversize, with a meplat like 350 Speer.
Still have a few and in 6 years they softened a little in
storage..Ed.

One thing I should hsve mentioned is that with BIG BORES it's often possible to do just as we're talking about, namely use full powder charges under cast bullets.

However, trying this in many smaller-caliber rifles can be nothing but futility. In many small-cased cartridges of smaller bore, full charges work fine. These would include such rounds as .30-30 and .32 Special, as examples. However, trying to run a cast 300 magnum bullet, for example, with full jacketed-bullet powder charges is largely impractical. The .338 MIGHT be a possibility, and the .375 H&H is a DEFINITE possiblity. One more reason why I like big calibers!

I got my 500gn .475 mold from www.mountainmolds.com It's a gaschecked design that I size to .476", lube with Javalina and shoot at 2150 without any problems at all. The bullets are water dropped wheel weights. Without looking at my notes, I think it took about 2gns less RL15 to get the same velocity as the 500 XLC.

You can use a soft lead sinker to slug your bore, just get a hardwood dowl to push it back out with.