First, let me be really clear on this: it is not going to be a dangerous game rifle. It is going to be for shooting deer in Minnesota. Please keep this in mind as you ponder the following question...

I dearly love my 45-70 single shot, but recently have seen the need to have at least a second shot on tap, so I am considering building a special purpose 458 Win Mag on a Mauser action. Those 45-70 doubles are still too spendy and hard to come by...

I'd like to do about a 20" bbl (short barrel = good woods gun where I hunt). Desired performance will be about equal to my current 45-70 loads: 400 gr Speer @ 1800-1900 fps. This will be a strictly handloaded rifle, so I really don't care about how it will perform with factory ammo, although it will be chambered to standard specs, so that it would be possible, although painful, to shoot factory ammo. Rifle weight will be about 7.5 - 8 # empty, hunting peep sights installed (no scope). Is this barrel going to limit my velocity, or does it not matter, since I am shooting for such a 'mild' velocity level?

I need a short, repeating rifle in .458 caliber. My current single shot has a 22" bbl and weighs about 6.25 #, so it carries very nicely and shoots well. Would an 18" bbl be way too short? I'm not interested in the various lever actions, as they are not comfortable for me to shoot. What kind of performance envelope can I expect with an 18-20" bbl? Could I possibly get these 400 gr bullets to 2000 fps in this short bbl length? thanks, maxman

a 400 grain bullet going 2000fps is certaily no problem with an 18 inch barrel but your recoil level will be substancial. Personally I don't see any reason to go below 20 in. but each to his own. Any way you choose you should have a great reasonable range deer buster.

I've got an older Ruger M77 in .458 Win and have had excellent results with the 405gr Rem JFP at 1915fps in the 24" bbl my rifle has. It's a joy to shoot and very pleasant as far as recoil goes, though my open-sighted M77 weighs in at exactly 10 lbs with sling, etc. At 200yds I ring the 11"h x 8"w steel gong almost every shot with the open sights (just aim at the top edge of the steel) from field positions. This is one of my favorite rifles - it's slick as butter and functions flawlessly. I wouldn't hesitate to take it against any critter on the planet.

In your 20" bbl that would deliver just about 1800fps with the load I'm using, which is 67.0gr of IMR-4064 and a standard primer in W-W cases. This is a minimum load for the .458 Win, so you have plenty of room to work with if you want to bump it up to 1900 or so. Beyond that I'm not sure where the 400gr Speer or 405gr Rem will begin to fail due to excess velocity.

PS to Phil/458Win: Have you tried or seen the new .458" 500gr Hornady Interbond in action yet? I would guess it's an improvement over the interlock and I know you've used that bullet extensively in the past.

Maxman,

My 458 has a 20" barrel and 2050fps is pretty easy with 500gr. bullets. If you are looking for a great deer load try the 350X. I got 2550fps from my 20" barrel and it really seemed to smack caribou size animals hard. This load is also very accurate in my rifle.

The 20" barrel is very handy in the brush although a bit muzzle light.

All data for the above loads came directly from the Hornady manual.

Regards,

Mark

This sounds like an interesting project....and I bet when it comes to shorter barrels the .458 win mag would be much more efficient than the lott as you could use a faster powder am I on the right track ??

That's what I'm thinking. Thanks for the responses, guys. The only reason I considered the 18" bbl is because my current 45-70 is only 37" long total with a 22" bbl. I'd like to stay as close as possible to that overall length, but the more I think about it, the more the 20" bbl comes out the winner. The shorter barrels do have huge advantages where I hunt. I tried lugging a heavy 24" barreled rifle through there last year - not again.

So, this isn't an odd idea after all. I was hoping that this particular cartridge would handle shorter barrels better. Looks like a done deal to me. Now to gather the pieces...... maxman

.

Or you could just get a Marlin Guide Gun off the rack in .45-70 or .450 Marlin, put on some stout peep sights, and save yourself a lot of time and money ...

How does the lott go in comparison to the win mag in short barrels ??

manman,

An 18� barrel will work just fine. REMEMBER to wear your hearing protection if you care about your hearing in the least. Personally I wouldn�t have a .458 with a barrel shorter than 24� or weight less than 9.75 lbs.. Lawdog

Have you looked at the 450 Marlin built on a bolt short action? I was thinking of using a Montana 1999 with a 20 inch barrel and peep sights for deer.

I prefer longer barrels on my DGRs, I have never been able to see any advantage to a short barrel, they make a rifle muzzle light, give you a lot of up close blast, and don't balance well for offhand shooting IMO...

The carbine idea is a nostalgic oxymoran...The only place I like a short barrel is when I am hunting horseback. It has a lot of appeal to inexperienced hunters IMO...

As to the fabled brush rifle, thats all in the head, when you throw a gun to the shoulder you don't know where the intervening brush that gets in your way will be for goodness sake. The old mountain men and early African hunters all liked 27" barrels, even in the Jesse...they knew a thing or two...

Well, when I talk brush, I mean going through acres of 15-foot tall popple trees growing about 8 inches from each other. It's paper mill logging regrowth. It's terrible to get through with anything longer than a pistol. Plus, our elevated enclosed blinds are short on room inside (a pallet up on stilts with walls) and have posts going up past the top of the walls to support a ceiling. It's a lot like trying to shoot out of the seat of your car - there's always something blocking the muzzle, forcing you to drop it from your shoulder and remount it after clearing the obstruction if you want to shoot a different direction.

So, it's not that the short barrel has some magical sex appeal. I've hunted this area with all sorts of guns with barrels from 25" on down to 4.5". The shorter rifles are just much easier to manipulate with all the stuff in the way. It's not tall grass that you can bend, or general 'woods' work. These are hard obstructions and close spaces. At times, even the 45-70 seems too long. Certain places have better access than others, and there I most definitely use my favorite rifle (with a 24" barrel). Like Ray said, it keeps the blast away and they balance better - but they suck to haul through the thick stuff. Use the right tool for the job. That's what I say, anyway.

I don't think a 20" barrel on a 458 WM bolt action will be any worse than the 22" barrel on my 45-70 now - when the 458 is operated in the same performance envelope! In fact, the actual muzzle on the theoretical 458 will be ~3" FARTHER from my ears than the 45-70. So, the short-barreled 458 will be more muzzle heavy, better balanced, and heavier than the rifle I shoot now - plus it will be a repeater. To me, that translates as a better shootin iron than what I'm running now. Naturally, all this could change if this was to be a true DGR, but it's not. Not unless deer made the DG list when I wasn't looking! maxman