The Barnes banded solids in big calibers are out now. Midway has a limited supply. I just loaded up a box of the 450 grain in .458 for my 450 Dakota. I'll test these out on paper real soon, and see how they shoot. Also, some new sizes are out in the Triple Shock X bullets in larger calibers.

Those are fine lookin' bullets.....really like that flat nose. Too bad they don't make it for the 470.....maybe "mid-year intoduction"? I can only hope...'till then the Sledgehammers have to work.

Gary B.

Ken, any feeding issues thus far?? In spite of the flat noses, they are sort of rounded off - I guess to avoid feeding problems?? Be nice if you could run a mag full through your rifle and let us know, please.
- mike

The problem with the "rounded off" design of the Barnes flat nosed solid is that it does not create as large a vapor bubble as it moves through tissue as a flat nose ahead of a conical ogive. Thus we would expect a GS Custom or similar solid to penetrate more deeply than the rounded off Barnes. Further, the Barnes banded solid will take more pressure to engrave on the rifling than a true driving band solid. Nonetheless, the Barnes banded solid is a significant improvement over Barnes prior round nose solid. Barnes has been known to change their products from time to time (pencil point X bullets, rounded ogive X bullets, blue bullets, etc.), so this may not be the last step in the evolution of Barnes solids.

It looks like Barnes made it out of brass. Any statement on the grade?

George

These 458 450 grain solids have a flat tip that measures about .320". This flat tip is larger than the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid flat points as I remember.

I ran 5 through the gun, and there is no problem feeding. They ran through as fast as I could cycle it.

I am going to be shooting a 2000 pound bull bison in early January, but the first shot will be with the TSX bullets. I will have 3 of the solids in the magazine, but I don't expect to be needing them.



Gary- Barnes is a company that listens to their customers, so an Email or phone call might be a good idea. I can't imagine that it is too tough to convert their machining process to the new solid design. With all the 470 shooters out here, they would sell if they were made

Ken...you are absolutely right....they're getting a call on Monday. Those GS Custom bullets are somewhat hard to come by so I hear. The Barnes look like they would do the job nicely. Also, I believe, as with the TSX, the bands actually reduce the pressure. If they come out with the 470 dia., I will try them out and report the findings.

Gary B.

Thanks for the feeding report Ken, much appreciated. There are also the new North Fork solids coming out - including Ray Atkinson's favourite "cup point" design. I would be looking to use those bullets, if it was not for the (potential) feeding issues, and the fact that the Barnes Banded Solids come in 270 grs (as well as 300) in .375 cal. I have a feeling it will be easier to get the .270 grs to shoot to the same POI as my intended .270 grs TSX load.

Let us know what results you get at the range, please.

- mike

Huh? The hornady soft punched through but the Barnes brass solid with the flat nose did not make it???

If the rounded ogive flat nose feeds O.K. in the rifle, then the truncated cone flat points like the GSC FN and North Fork FP and CP would probably be even slicker. That is my experience with trying such bullets in my rifles.

I think I will stay with the Northfork flat nose as I have seen what it will do, but that cup point is the most nearly perfect Buffalo bullet I have ever seen, and it is a hammer on the black bulls..I have shot quite a number of them with these bullets in a 375, 416, 404, and a 470 over the last few years, and I'm sold on them...With the cup point I see no need for a soft solid combo, just use the cup point as it will do anything a soft of solid will do....If your gun won't feed them then have a smith tweek your gun, but they seem to feed in most guns...

As to the solid the Northfork has a larger flat nose and it also has a cutting shoulder which I am convinced makes a difference in the entrance wound and lets out more blood....

Ray...I talked to your buddy at Northfork. He says maybe mid-Feb. for availability on the 470 cup points. He said to give him a call....I'll be doing that.

Gary B.

The solids worked great on a bison today. I shot a 2000 pound bull at about 60 yards. I intended to use the TSX bullets and lung shoot it, but was advised to head or neck shoot it, so I used the solids. There was a nasty swamp on the property, and if he would have ran into that, it could have been a mess.

Gary,

Your phone call must have been effective. I talked to Ty last week, and the Banded solids have been introduced in 470 500 grain. It might be a little while before they are on the shelves, but they are on the way.

Ray,
Would you use the Northfork Cup Point in a 416 Rigby exclusively on a full bag Tanzania safari including lion and elephant?

quote:

The problem with the "rounded off" design of the Barnes flat nosed solid is that it does not create as large a vapor bubble as it moves through tissue as a flat nose ahead of a conical ogive. Thus we would expect a GS Custom or similar solid to penetrate more deeply than the rounded off Barnes.

500 grains:

Do you have any credible scientific reference to preove that "Supercavitation" actually occurs when a flat nosed projectile is fired into composite living tissue?

Further this when Dr. Norbert Hanson first published his theory on his bullet design I thaught it novel and then out of pure interest read up and browsed the wealth of data and papers on the subject.

Much of it I confess I do not comprehend for the science and physics of the subject is way above my intellectual level.

What is abundantly clear however is that the subject is far from simple, further it would appear that the phenomenon only occurs under certain set physical cirumstances ( for both the projectile and the medium (water) in which it is propelled and that the construct of the projectile profile is critical.

Another "problem" is dealing with the water entry of the projectile, ie from flight in air to passage through water.

Destabilization of the projectile appears to be a problem.

Is this really a phenomemon in a FN bullet ? and does it have to have a flat ogive to do this. If you look at the supercavititor models used as presented not all have cavitator discs, some are pointed but have vents.

A further consideration:

There is no animal larger than an elephant and it would appear on face value that for the brain shot you do not need "supercavitation" to kill it. Nor do I believe that you can produce this phenomenon in an elephant scull as you are dealing not with an object filled with water.

If you were claiming you were going for a body shot and "Supercavitation " were the reason for penetration I would ask the following:

How do you evoke it in the bowel, stomach or the lungs as none of these "organs" contain water in sufficient and homogenous form to cause cavitation.

In the livng elephant the bulk of the viskus consists of the stuff that the animal ate ( ie grass leaves and twigs) and the stuff that this animal breaths ie air.

So in essence though a refreshing theory and a practical application for the speeding of vehicles and obejects in water I doubt if it is truelly at issue in the living animal

i still cant figure why they ever got rid of the 510 dia round nose solids most every 50 caliber bolt action shooter i know used them. they they said it them selves they sold plenty of them and they may reinterduce them as a banded flat nose solid later. they still make 577 and 600 nitro solids wich they sell way less of.

They still have quite an inventory of the discontinued bullets. Check their website under the "purchase online" section. www.barnesbullets.com.

Ken...that's great news! Yes, I called and e-mailed and told them I was pretty sure that if they shot as good as they looked they should sell well for the 470 users. The were VERY appreciative of the call/e-mail and said that this is the kind of input they like to determine which direction to take with their products. Now, when they become available.......

Gary B.

Alf,

I know of no research which proves that supercavitation occurs in animal tissue.

My own penetration experiments on elephants show a FN with a flat ogive (GS, Bridger) penetrate deeper on body shots than those with a rounded give (Trophy Bonded). Also, bigger meplats gave deeper penetration without limit. That means .510 bullets went deeper than .475" bullets, due to the larger flat meplat of the former, notwithstanding the 150 fps greater muzzle velocity of the latter. All of this is counterintuitive unless supercavitation is used to explain the phenomena.

However, those tests did not involve a large enough sample space or sufficiently consistent test conditions to reach scientifically sound conclusions.

SBT,
I would use the cup point in .416 for everything but elephant and have for the most part....

I will have to shoot a dead elephant in the head a half a dozen times before I will comment on a cuppoint for elephant, as they do expand some and that stops expansion to a degree, howmuch I don't know..

Other than elephant, they suit me for everything from Duiker to Hippo and c
Cape Buffalo. I personally think the cup points will penitrate enough for Elephant, but until I know for sure I will not recommend them for head shooting Elephants...I don't toy with those great pachyderms!