Found this interesting article so I'd thought I'd share it. I'd heard about this phenomenon on the rumour mill, so it was good to find and share it.

.458 magnum problem explained.

By Jim Charmichael.


"NOTHING IS EVER NEW IN THIS BUSINESS" is an oft-repeated epigram in the shooting world, and not without good reason. Thus it is a near-historic event when a nugget of information comes to light that completely reverses what we know--or thought we knew--about a long discussed shooting topic.
I won't keep you in suspense long, but to get events in perspective, let's go back to a column I wrote called "America's Gift to Africa" (August 2002), in which I praised the .458 Winchester Magnum and expressed some skepticism about rumors of its failing on Africa's biggest and most dangerous game. Rumors began filtering back from Africa not long after Winchester's 1956 introduction of its .458 Mag., alleging incidents of game that got away after supposedly being well hit at close range, and even elephant and buffalo charges that turned deadly because of the .458's lack of stopping power. These are mighty serious allegations against a cartridge on which a hunter might have to stake his life.
A LESS EXPENSIVE OPTION
Such reports, even if second- and third-hand, did not bode well for the future of a cartridge that Winchester heralded as an antidote to the quadrupling prices of traditional British and Continental dangerous-game rifles and cartridges. With a muzzle energy of more than 5,000 ft-lb (as then advertised), the .458 virtually duplicated the elephant-stopping power of the legendary .470 Nitro Express, and did it at a fraction of the cost. Moreover, its companion rifle, Winchester's Model 70, possessed a worldwide reputation for accuracy and reliability at, again, a fraction of the price of double rifles or even carriage-trade bolt rifles.
Thus an M-70 in .458 caliber looked to be the best of all worlds for professional guides and certainly for sport hunters who wanted to go to Africa or other places where big and dangerous animals lurked. Except, that is, for the reports of it not doing what it was expected to do when its full-jacketed solid bullets encountered hard muscle and solid bone.
Such anecdotes were completely at odds with my own experiences with the .458 in Africa, such as my first elephant, which was a head-on upward angling shot (it was that close) with my hand-loaded 500-grain steel-jacketed bullet smashing through the thick skull, into the brain, and exiting behind the head. Other elephants fell just as surely, as did Cape buffalo, safari after safari, causing me to become all the more skeptical of rumors about the .458's shoddy performance. A skepticism which was reinforced by conversations with the professional guides with whom I hunted.
Anyway, my African hunting began in the early 1970s, by which time rumors about the .458's failings had begun to fade. As well as I could connect the dots, reports of the .458's sub-standard performance were circulated only during the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the cartridge was still a newcomer.
NOT ENOUGH POWDER?
These were the reports that stirred some amateur ballistics theorists, in their usual rush to judgment, to speculate that the problem with the .458 Magnum was that its case didn't hold enough powder. Never mind that it delivered two and a half tons of energy at the muzzle--as much as, or more than, several British bluebloods of hallowed repute; somehow it needed more powder. As it turns out, they were on to something. But not because the .458's pudgy case didn't hold enough powder. It was because, at times during the production process, it wasn't being loaded with enough powder!
This came to light when I happened to read an astonishing "Letter to the Editor" in a 2004 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, a nicely done, semi-technical journal devoted mainly to rifle accuracy. The letter's author, Walter Engel, a former Winchester engineer, described his intimate involvement in the development of the .458, and his subsequent discovery of quality problems with Winchester's ammo production line.
In his words: "The production loading machine has a large flat disk that rotates intermittently and there are slots along the periphery that carry the case to each station. This results in a start-and-stop movement, so that a distinct loading operation can occur at each pause. This jarring motion caused the powder to spill out [emphasis mine] of very full cases." In his letter, Mr. Engel goes on to describe the obvious effects of the lost powder as "a loss of velocity." So there you have it.
PROBLEM CORRECTED
How much velocity and energy were lost depended, of course, on how much powder was tossed out of the open cases, but it's reasonable to assume that the amounts varied from round to round. Thus, within a single 20-round box of .458 ammo, velocity/energy levels could vary cartridge to cartridge by hundreds of feet per second and thousands of foot-pounds of energy.
Nowadays, we seldom hear reports of the .458 failing when the chips are down, except when the failing turns out to have been the result of poor shooting, and it's safe to say that once the powder spillage problem was observed, it was immediately corrected.
Meanwhile, in its half-century of existence, the .458 Winchester Magnum is firmly entrenched as the world's most used and recognized cartridge in places where men hunt dangerous animals and put their faith in the cartridges they fire. This in spite of a cloud that once hung over its future, a cloud at last blown away by the simple explanation of a former Winchester engineer who was, in fact, instrumental in the development of the .458, Walter Engel. Thank you, sir.
CARTRIDGE TIMELINE 
1907
*.470 NE Introduced in 1907, the 470 NE is one of the quintessential cartridges for dangerous game. Federal's factory loading launches a 500-gr. bullet at 2,150 fps, generating 5130 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle.
1956
* 458 Win. Mag. Even though it fits in a standard long-action receiver, the .458 Win. Mag. can propel a 500-gr. projectile at 2100 fps. nearly duplicating the ballistics of the famed .470 NE at a fraction of the cost.
1971
* .458 Lott Jack Lott created this wildcat in 1971 by lengthening the case of the .458 Win. Hag, Hornady started producing it in 2002. With an initial velocity of 2.300 fps, it generates nearly 6.000 ft-lb of muzzle energy.
~~~~~~~~
By Jim Carmichael.

BBM,

Thanks for sharing the article. I do recollect 'under velocity' being an issue that was discussed during 'recaps' of 458 WinMag issues - typically followed by 'make it longer' as resolution. I don't think I ever read the recommendation to 'find a better powder' coming forth. Nice to read that Winchester identified the QC issue and 'fixed' the process.

quote:

.458 Lott Jack Lott created this wildcat in 1971 by lengthening the case of the .458 Win. Hag, Hornady started producing it in 2002. With an initial velocity of 2.300 fps, it generates nearly 6.000 ft-lb of muzzle energy.

22 years prior (1949) James Watts was the FIRST to expand a .375 H&H case and named his creation the .450 Watts. Over two decades later, Lott plagiarized is cartridge, shaved .050 off the Watts and named it after himself. He got (and still gets) the credit as he was a well known writer and hunter whereas Watts was a school teacher from Alaska most folks never heard of. Ackley put a small (and almost worthless) shoulder on the case but Lott did nothing but shave off a bit.
I have the old papers from Jim and his family and he did a lot in the cartridge world.
Cheers,
Cal

thanks a lot for this article.

I have never thought the 458 Win not powerful enough, a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS will kill anything...

My dislike for the .485 Win. comes from "compaction"...all powders are compacted a bit too much for my liking..so why not run a Lott reamer in it and shoot it at 2000 to 2100 FPS, thats a $50.00 modification or it can be done by hand for that matter, and it solves all so claimed problems, you can still shoot 458 Win ammo in it..that just makes since to me, but to each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
thanks a lot for this article.

I second this !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have never thought the 458 Win not powerful enough, a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS will kill anything...

My dislike for the .485 Win. comes from "compaction"...all powders are compacted a bit too much for my liking..so why not run a Lott reamer in it and shoot it at 2000 to 2100 FPS, thats a $50.00 modification or it can be done by hand for that matter, and it solves all so claimed problems, you can still shoot 458 Win ammo in it..that just makes since to me, but to each his own.

Hi Atkinson,

I don't think that that powder compaction is as big as issue now due to more suitable powders available now. I've also found that by buying a Lee Factory crimp die also helps. Instead of crimping to the cannelure, just crimp out as far as the magazine allows. This helps with with alleviating compressing loads to much. I'm lucky coz I shoot a CZ550 Safari, which has the magnum length action and magazine, so I can load the WM to the same OAL as the Lott for the same ballistics.
I'm lucky, living in Australia, that we have great powders in the ADI line that don't seem to be real temperature sensitive and are great in the WM. Because of this there are some fantastic load data in Oz such as the 550's at 2100fps, 500's at over 2200' 450's well over 2250 etc.. We're also lucky because these 'elephant' loads get tested on our heavies (buffalo, scub bull,) that are found up Northern Australia where it gets VERY hot. This is good because they are getting tested in temps comparable to Africa, so there is no surprises with your bolt locking up coz you tested your loads in the middle of winter in Canada!
When I bought my .458 I could've gotten the Lott, but passed because I wanted a Win Mag. Always liked the WM so I got one and have never regretted it.

I truly feel that the .458 is beyond critism now and if people think differently they re really should check out the data that Michael458 is providing on this site. It's very impressive.
I know you're not a fan of the .458WM and nothing I say is going to change that, (I'm sure not gonna argue over it, each their own, eh?) but seriously, my CZ550 Safari Magnum in .458WM would be the last gun I'd ever part with... and the first one to grab if my life was on the line...
She's still a grand and formidable old girl..

GB,

Russ.

I just saw this thread. It's ironic, your discussion with Ray. About 3-4years ago I bought a pair of CZ 550's' from him; one in 9.3x62,the other in .458 Lott. The Lott is a beast to shoot, so far most of my practice has been with .458WM-level loads. I feel more than ready for the zombie apocalypse!

Anyone who read Jack Lott's original story of his dust up with the buff in Mozambique in 1959 in the G&A Big Bore magazine will see that he does not blame the 458 at all. In fact he claims that it was he who gut shot the buff and that the fault was not that of the .458. He goes on to praise the 458 as "an inseparable part of my life"
It was only later that he learned of a few issues with powder compaction in the original loads that he came up with the idea of extending the case to form the Lott.
With the powders today there is no problem with surpassing the original 500 gr @ 2150fps that was claimed for virtually all the big bore classics.

When I was researching the .458 ( before I bought the CZ's)every article I read blamed powder compaction (same thing Ray posted,above) for the lack of advertised velocity and erratic ignition in its early years. This idea that the rounds were losing powder in manufacturing is intriguing, to say the least.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Anyone who read Jack Lott's original story of his dust up with the buff in Mozambique in 1959 in the G&A Big Bore magazine will see that he does not blame the 458 at all. In fact he claims that it was he who gut shot the buff and that the fault was not that of the .458. He goes on to praise the 458 as "an inseparable part of my life"

It was only later that he learned of a few issues with powder compaction in the original loads that he came up with the idea of extending the case to form the Lott. With the powders today there is no problem with surpassing the original 500 gr @ 2150fps that was claimed for virtually all the big bore classics.

Interesting post. Now we know Jack Lott gut-shot the buffalo with the 458 Win which was the real problem. I believe a 450gr Solid bullet is a better match for the 458 Win than the longer 500gr Solid to tap a bit more velocity. The 458 Win had a bad start with the powder problem which was unforetunate. Still many PHs mistakenly believe they need the magical 458 Lott.

Santa Claus

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Anyone who read Jack Lott's original story of his dust up with the buff in Mozambique in 1959 in the G&A Big Bore magazine will see that he does not blame the 458 at all. In fact he claims that it was he who gut shot the buff and that the fault was not that of the .458. He goes on to praise the 458 as "an inseparable part of my life"

It was only later that he learned of a few issues with powder compaction in the original loads that he came up with the idea of extending the case to form the Lott. With the powders today there is no problem with surpassing the original 500 gr @ 2150fps that was claimed for virtually all the big bore classics.

Interesting post. Now we know Jack Lott gut-shot the buffalo with the 458 Win which was the real problem. I believe a 450gr Solid bullet is a better match for the 458 Win than the longer 500gr Solid to tap a bit more velocity. The 458 Win had a bad start with the powder problem which was unforetunate. Still many PHs mistakenly believe they need the magical 458 Lott.

Santa Claus

+1/2 -1/2

First of all, I think that the 450 grain bullets are a better match for .458" bore than 500, especially now with monometals of GSC, Barnes, and CEB's. So yes

However, I think I'm with Ray on appraising the 458 WinMag as underpowered and needing a more robust design. The 450 Watt//450 Lott//458 AccRel is a better minimum bar for an African rifle. A little horsepower, up to 2400-2500fps doesn't hurt a hunting load. I don't happen to own a .458, being content with several .416's and now a .510", so people can take my advice with a large dose of salt. When I walk in the forest I like the rifle to be ACCURATE and thus to be ready for anything, including slightly longer shots. I've spent too much of my life carry rifles of 2700fps loads and faster so that I would feel out of my element with a load that only does 2100fps. While I am sure that such a load will do its job on a buffalo within 100-125 yards, I like the gun to be able to comfortably reach a little farther, and I think that 6000 ftlbs is a nice level for African hunting. These animals are dangerous and extra energy may transfer a few marginal shots into fatal shots. Granted, the percentage where this is useful or makes a contribution is small, but it does exist. So I'm for carrying the biggest rifle on hand that is ACCURATE, has an adequate bullet, and is relatively easy to carry.

Easy carry for me has meant under 11 pounds (5 kg.). I've never had a 12 lb. rifle, so I can't say one way or another on the heavy end. A CZ 450 Rigby (practical case capacity equivalent to 460 Weatherby) with scope should get in under 11 pounds. Just my 2 cents, but I would hope worth considering before walking around Africa in the thick stuff.

458Win

Do you have a copy or know where I can get a copy of the article you mention/

Thanks,
Eric

Hopefully somebody more familiar with the internet can locate it so you can read it here but it is in the 1983 Guns and Ammo Action Series Volumn 1, No 1, Big Bore Rifles 0-8227-2335-2

I just bought a copy from ABE books for $5 - but have seen them priced a whole lot higher from other sellers.

Jack Lott wrote and edited the entire thing and told his story first hand. What is amazing is that many years later, the piece he wrote for Wolfe Publishing's Hunting Horizons on the 458 Win pretty much contridicted his original piece. And that is the one so many writers choose to quote.

You'd think that after 50 or 60 years they'd have noticed that they were up to their necks in spilt powder.

I have never said the 458 Win. was underpower, I have said that I know of no load that is not compacted more than it should be IMO, re: The Swift loading manual for one shows load density on all handloads they used..

I have said over and over that a properly handloaded 458 will kill anything. I have used it with complete confidence on Buffalo. I know many PHs that cull elephants with it and proper handloads according to them, all that I know stipulated handloads.

My choice is to punch it out to a Lott and shoot 500 gr. bullets at 458 Velocity. That is 2100 or 2150 FPS without compaction, simple as that, why is that not a good option?, but to each his own and its my option...

Also and very important is that I can shoot the extremely long 500 gr. Barnes X bullets in the Lott, and not in the 458 Win. as the Barnes bullet simply too long for the 458 Win, end of story, and my chronograph sez it ain't goooooood! and I can't get anymore powder in it of any kind and seat bullets to fit the gun...

I suppose if one wanted to lengthen the box, lengthen the throat, emake the bolt stop and then seat the BX bullet out it would also work, but its a lot easier and a lot cheaper to punch that few thous out of a 458, Such a minor operation that Jack belk sez you can damn near do it with a fingernail file!

Back when the 458W came on the scene things were far different. Today you can push a 450 gr Barnes banded solid at almost 2400 fps or a 450 TSX @2250. Anyone who believes that will not kill anything except a Blue Whale has been spending too much time in Colorado "specialty shops".
My 1890 Browning High Wall (30" bbl) in 45-70 will almost equal these ballistics.
Both are also great cast bullet rifles.
It's as meaningless today as the 308 vs 30-06 debate.

quote:

Jack Lott wrote and edited the entire thing and told his story first hand. What is amazing is that many years later, the piece he wrote for Wolfe Publishing's Hunting Horizons on the 458 Win pretty much contridicted his original piece. And that is the one so many writers choose to quote.

458Win

Could you please tell us the detail of the contradiction.

In Ron Thomson's book he shot more that 6000 Elephants. He says in his book Mahohboh his favorite rifle is his 458 Win.

I am under correction, but Richard Harlan also shot around 4000 elepgant with his 458 Win (500gr @ 2,050 fps)

Santa Claus

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Jack Lott wrote and edited the entire thing and told his story first hand. What is amazing is that many years later, the piece he wrote for Wolfe Publishing's Hunting Horizons on the 458 Win pretty much contradicted his original piece. And that is the one so many writers choose to quote.

458Win

Could you please tell us the detail of the contradiction.

Santa Claus

Ross,Terry and a lot of other writers have done a pretty fair job of that. Plus it is a lot of territory to try covering here. You should be able to find a lot of information here on the forums and hopefully you can find the back issues I mentioned as well.

The facts that the highly experienced folks you mentioned, Richard Harland and Ron Tompson, as well as Mike LaGrange, who also has killed thousands of elephants and claims in his book, Ballistics In Perspective, that his favorite round is the standard 458 Win. John Kingsly-Heath also stated in his book that he considered the 458 Win in the M-70 "one of the greatest developments in hunting rifles in recent times"

Even Harry Selby bought one after he sold his 416 Rigby.

All of these reports should be indicative that bullets from the 458 Win don't bounce off.