Saeed,

If you do not mind, please provide some additional information on this round. I have read the write up on the reloading pages. It is a .450 Dakota case necked down to .424, correct? Are dies available for this caliber? Reamers? Do you have a picture of a round next to something like a .375 H&H or .404 Jeffery? Sorry for all the questions -- if there is another link with more information, just let me know. Sounds like an interesting chambering.

Thanks.

Mike,

Check the AccurateReloading.com reloading pages.

George

I think it is the same as a 375 RUM but he did it before Remington

quote:

Originally posted by tradewinds:
I think it is the same as a 375 RUM but he did it before Remington

Its got different dimensions than the RUM (longer neck mainly) but it is effectively the same.....only better.

Cheers
Canuck

Mike,



It started from .416 Dakota brass, not 450 Dakota.
Saeed forms his brass easily by simply necking down .416 Dakota brass to .375 creating a double shoulder that gets ironed out in fire forming.

As long as I have been here, I have never known Saeed to publish a drawing nor even type out any specific measurements other than case capacity in water grains gross.

I am guessing it has a slightly-longer-than-caliber-length neck, and a 25 to 30-degree shoulder angle.

Since it forms a double shoulder when the .416 Dakota is necked down, the shoulder-to-base length is longer on Saeed's cartridge than that of the .416 Dakota.
The .416 dakota does indeed have a long neck that could use some shortening,
more than comes by simply necking down.
The shoulder angle may be the same, just blown forward, or it may be slightly different.

I do have a feeling Saeed would have wanted to re-do as much as possible of Art Alphin's original .416 Dakota design as possible.

If the .375 RUM has 120 grains water, then the .375/404 UAE has 119 grains, when it is made from Norma 404 Jeffery brass, IIRC.

The .375 RUM suffers from a too short neck and a rebated rim, and a head size that is a few thou bigger than the .404 Jeffery.

Saeed's cartridge has none of these flaws. It is more perfect.

Do a search and ye shall find much.

BTW, Saeed's powder charge above, 85 grains of H4350, would be great in the .375 Weatherby with any 300-grain bullet that fits the box.

You can use even more powder than that in the .375 Wby if using the 300-grain Nosler or such bullets shorter in length than the Walterhog.

That bullet has such a long nose that you need a Rigby-length action to load it properly,
such as a CZ 550 Magnum, or a Dakota 76 full-magnum-length action/African, like Saeed's.

That is another difference of the .375/404 Jeffery from UAE versus the .375 RUM.
The former has 3.75" COL, and the latter has 3.60" COL.

Thus Saeed's round does exceed the .375 RUM in effective case capacity, by a nose, when the same bullets are loaded in both cartridges to max COL.

Saeed's cartridge is a long-nose cartridge, a chip off the old block,
that wins by a nose ... and more!

Not much I can add to what my friend above has written.

However, some of you might be interested how this cartridge came into being, and how circumstanes in the field have made me decide that one rifle-one bullet combination is best for my own hunts.

Years ago, a friend of mine who was the RWS dealer, gave me trunks full of all the different calibers, and loads, that RWS made.

When I saw the 404, I thought it might make a perfect case for some hot wildcats.

After a bit of thought, I decided to have 4 wildcats made on this case.

A 375/404
A 338/404
A 30/404
And a 270/404.

We built rifles for all of the above. The 30/404 and 338/404 were built on the large Hall Giant bench rest action.

The 375/404 was built on a Dakota 76 action, and the 270/404 was built on a Remington action.

The first to go to Africa was the 375/404, and that was when I used to take two rifles for my hunts.

A smaller caliber for the plains game, and the 375/404 for buffalo, elephant and lion.

I remember that year having a Lazzeroni 7.21 Firehawk, and the 375/404.

First day of our hunt was devoted to shooting impala for bait.

And after a few easy shots where I could not hit anything with the Lazzeroni, and finally making a kill at close range, we discovered that the action screws on that rifle were very loose.

They had Allen heads, and we were not able to tighten them in the field.

That turned out a blessing in desguise, as I left that rifle in the truck, and used my 375/404.

4 shots later we had 4 impala. The furthest one was over 400 yards away.

So the Lazzeroni was fixed, and I used it to shot some of the plains game on that hunt, but decided that I would rather use just one gun for everything.

So as soon as I got back home, I built another rifle for the 375/404. Again, this was on a Dakoota 76 action.

The original rifle had a muzzle brake, the new one I built without a muzzle brake, and a longer barrel.

We them modified the original rifle, and put a sleeve over the muzzle brake - this was Walter's invention.

I will post photos of cases being formed later in the day.

Here is Saeed's 375/404 in a cartridge lineup.


9.3x64, 375 Ruger, 375 H&H, 375/404, 375 RUM, 378 WBY

Saeed,

Do you find the 375/404 to be more effective on game like buffalo than the regular 375 H&H?

I think it will be stretching a point to say that the 375/404 is more effective than the 375H&H, so no, I personally do not think it is.

But, I just like the extra velocity with our own bullets, and similar ones.

The photo above shows the original 404, then a formed case, then loaded rond with, and one that has already been fired and loaded.

The 375H&H is to the right for comparison.

As I have mentioned earlier, I do not fireform cases then load them for our hunts.

I hunt with them as you can see above, with a double shoulder.

Saed,
Have you ever had a problem with not correctly stamped cases in Africa?

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .375 RUM suffers from a too short neck....

I aggree, but is it not longer than on the .375 Ruger?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Saed,
Have you ever had a problem with not correctly stamped cases in Africa?

Thanks,

No I haven't.

Thanks.
Interesting, as people often make a big deal out of that. I guess you have been hunting all over Africa, without problems.
Good info!

Thanks to everyone for all the great information. Very interesting. I particularly found interesting hunting with the resized brass, with the double shoulder, before they were fireformed.

Saeed,
I understand your reluctance to reveal the exact specs of your pet wildcat.
It is neat to be the only man in the world using a certain cartridge,
and thus to be able to allow your friends an exquisitely rare experience, when using your rifles.
I understand this several times over from personal experience.

I better go delete all the chamber and cartridge specs I have posted here.

I see in AMMOGUIDE:
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=836

It shows as essentially a non-rebated rim. But the 404
Jeffery is clearly designed with a rebated rim:
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=313

Does Saeed's rifle use brass with rebated rim or not?

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
I see in AMMOGUIDE there's been a change in thinking,
as to keeping the dimensions confidential:
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=836

It shows as essentially a non-rebated rim. But the 404
Jeffery is clearly designed with a rebated rim:
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=313

DR Hunter: Where you been? not paying attention for a long time, eh?
I am the one that weaseled out the specs on the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012 made with Norma 404 Jeffery brass,
by pumping Saeed for a decade.

There is only one standard I know of for the 404 Jeffery.
CIP, though they may call it the 404 Rimless NE.

Max diameter of cartridge rim is 13.79mm = .5429" (R1)
Max diameter of cartridge head is 13.84mm = .5448" (P1)
That is a "rebate" of 0.0019", less than two thou'.

In real life:
R1 = .539 to .543"
and
P1 = .541 to .545"

My specs at ammoguide show the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012
to have (I submitted these for the record):
R1 = .541"
P1 = .542"
This is based on actual measurements of my 404 Jeffery Norma brass, used to make the .375/404JSof2012

The specs of the 404 Jeffery as shown at ammoguide are wrong:
R1 = .537"
P1 = .544"

Compared to the .375 RUM R1= .534" and P1 = .550" (max, real life is lesser on both by up to .004"),
for a rebate of about .016",
the 404 Jeffery "rebate" is less than 2 thou', the .375 RUM rebate is 16 thou'.
404 Jeffery brass within tolerances could have a rim (R1) bigger than the case head (P1).
That would never be true of the .375 RUM.

The 404 Jeffery is not a rebated case design.
Never has been.

Hi RIP. Just reading through all this, posting, and then
seeing more info from you, editing my post afterward. By
then you had posted and "spun me around" a time or two.

375/404 is a wonderful cartridge no doubt! I am just won-
dering if Saeed's rifle uses rebated rim brass.
You do great work sir. I really enjoy the specific technical
details you regularly present.

I have a 375/404 built on a M70 CRF action and a D'Arcy Echols stock with a Lilja SS fluted barrel. It is a copy of Saeed's rifle. Rusty Magee built me a very fine rifle. There is a picture of it posted the original 375/404 thread.

It is Death Ray accurate and with 92 gr of H4350 I can push a Barnes 300gr TSX to 2850fps with no pressure issues at all.

The current dies from Hornady work only with Norma brass; they will not work with Hornady brass. The dies do not size the neck enough to get sufficient neck tension to retain the bullet

After FL sizing in the Hornady dies I use an RCBS 375 UltraMag FL sizing die with the bottom trimmed as a sort of "neck sizer". This correctly sizes the neck using Hornady brass as the parent case. I also use this die do the initial forming of the 404 Jeffery brass.

I am very pleased with my rifle. Even though getting all the bits together and assembled is a long, tedious process, the end result is well worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:

The current dies from Hornady work only with Norma brass; they will not work with Hornady brass. The dies do not size the neck enough to get sufficient neck tension to retain the bullet

I see you have a work around for the Hornady brass neck sizing issue, so you may not see a need to do anything more. However one option would be to send the Hornady die to Jim Carstensen, who can bore out the top of the die and convert it to accept Redding neck bushings. I had several RCBS dies done this way by Jim, and very much prefer this setup to a traditional fixed neck dimension and an expander ball.

There is some contact details for Jim listed on this link http://www.6mmbr.com/CarstensenJLC01.html However the website referenced on that page appears to be dead, although I believe the email is current. Jim is a good guy to deal with, and his turnaround was good when I dealt with him.

Head Trauma's load is exactly my working load with my 375 RUM. Exactly the same velocity. Very accurate. Sub-MOA.

quote:

I can push a Barnes 300gr TSX to 2850fps with no pressure issues at all

That is awesome...

Have you ever tried a 350 Grain TSX?

I don't need one but damn if I wouldn't love to have one.

Saeed/Rip,

I've noticed that on your 375/404's you're not installing open sites.

I also noticed that you both have used fluted barrels.

Could you please discuss your thoughts on this,

I'm starting a 375 Weatherby build and would like your input.

Irich,

I used to demand the clutter of open sights and barrel bands in my youth.
I have evolved as a rifleman to liking iron sights only on double rifles and lever actions, single shots and muzzle loaders OK too.
Antique ambience is what that is about.

But on a modernized bolt action, no more iron sights for me.
Proper scope and QD rings with backup scope for me.

A true 1X power setting on a scope is better than any iron sight. Faster and more accurate.

Saeed's choice of 2.5x to 8X Leupold is perfect for a .375.
I was doing that too, even before I knew who Saeed was.

I outright copied Saeed's barrel for the .375/404 Jeffery however, and put it on a .375/.338 Lapua Magnum before that:
Lilja No. 6, fluted, stainless, 1:12", 26" long.

I also like the Pac-Nor No. 3, stainless, 1:10", 25" long.

There is no more than one ounce of weight difference between those barrels. One ounce lighter on the 1" shorter No. 3 plain barrel.

No. 6 fluted will cool faster, and might be stiffer.
But the no. 3 plain barrel has proved very accurate too.

Saeed's first .375/404 Jeffery had a Shilen barrel, but I do not know all the specs on that one, which is now his camp loaner rifle.

No. 3 sporter or No. 6 fluted for minimum weight rifle (six flutes on a No. 6 like Dan Lilja does it).
No. 4 sporter for medium weight rifle.
No. 5 sporter for heavy weight rifle.
It gets ridiculous after that.

Rip's comments are spot on.

I share his sentiments on iron sights, they are really not necessary on a long range thumper like the 375/404; however, if you feel the need for them, have at it.

I was hesitant to get such a long barrel on my rifle (#6 fluted 1:12 25-1/2"), afraid it would be a nose-heavy pig. Not so. It turns out have a neutral balance and is very nice to shoot off the sticks.

Thanks Rip,

I appreciate the feedback

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I used to demand the clutter of open sights and barrel bands in my youth.
I have evolved as a rifleman to liking iron sights only on double rifles and lever actions, single shots and muzzle loaders OK too.
Antique ambience is what that is about.

But on a modernized bolt action, no more iron sights for me.
Proper scope and QD rings with backup scope for me.

A true 1X power setting on a scope is better than any iron sight. Faster and more accurate.

I completely agree with this. After all the "conventional wisdom" that iron sights were essential for getting shots away quickly at close range, I always wondered what was wrong with me. My practice consistently showed me that a low power scope was faster for me than irons.

I even hunted cape buff with irons only, and hated the whole experience. I struggled to see the sights in low light, and when I finally got a shot at a buff in long grass, I couldn't get a good sight picture with the irons very easily (although I did hit it fine with multiple shots).

I like the look of an classic DGR, but I love the function of a modern, rifle built to my specs when I am actually out hunting. I have not bothered with irons on any build I have commissioned in the last 7-8 years. Africaphiles may not like how my rifles look, but I sure like shooting game with them.

Bwana_500:

Finn Aagaard spelled it out for us 30 or 40 years ago in his NRA pubs.
A low power scope beats any iron sight on a rifle, for any rifle contest in any setting.
Barrel clutter be gone!
Besides, any kind of barrel clutter is like crapping on a fluted barrel, when a fluted barrel is desired.
And barrel cluttering hardware does not usually improve accuracy of any barrel.
Here's to Finn and the NRA "pub" also:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Finn Aagaard spelled it out for us 30 or 40 years ago in his NRA pubs.

RIP

Indeed!

Finn was the first person with credible experience that I ever heard with what I thought was a solid opinion on this issue.

Unfortunately it seems the internet age is better at propagating the "irons on DGR" heresy than in spreading the gospel of Finn .