Hi all, I just picked up the latest Rifle mag and was reading Seyfried's article on 12ga rifles. It seemed that part of it was aimed at the developement of the 12ga FH. Did anyone else get that impression as far as leaving the 12bore at sedate velocities? I wonder if Seyfried visits the forum??

I thing Ross is worried about some of us
dismembering ourselves.We will keep them to
a sedated 13,000 ft lbs.In a heavy gun.He is
a good guy, and helped me get brass for my
458HE.Ed.

I wrote him a letter after I got my 70 cal pinfire Howda. He responded with lots of caution, but then gave some good advice on loads and where to start with components, powder and projectiles. I agree, very nice guy.

Lar--Yes he is very careful, as he has done a lot of experimenting, and still has all of his parts.
He says I am definately crazy with my wildcats,
and always says be careful.
Although he needed a strap to hold his hat and
shooting glasses on when he shot that heavy
loaded Nyati in a light rifle, the one time, that we all saw in G&A picture.He has been a tremendous
help in the shooting fraternity, in talking up
and developing big bores.Kind of taking up Elmer's
work, I think...Ed.

Reading the article made me want to get a rifled shotgun barrel for my Handi-Rifle. He seems to have implied that modern rifled shotguns have shallow rifling compared to true 12 bore rifles. I was hoping that paper-patching would fix that but I still worry about the rate of twist being too fast.

You can tell by my handle how I first became to appreciate Mr Seyfried's work and he has written about most of the things gun-related that I find facinating.

I've missed the article in G&A!
But it sure sounds interesting, I've had similar ideas about cut rifling a 12ga or 20ga shotgun into a express double.
Could you pleace give me more details?

If my scanner was working, I'd send it to you, but since I ??upgraded?? to windows XP alot of my stuff needs updateing. I finally got my digital camera to work and the CDburner almost works, but the scanner is a nogo so far.

Thanks Lar45!

I'm waiting for your scanner to re-connect

Finally managed to get a copy of the November issue of Rifle and read Ross's article on 12-bore rifles. I think 45LC's idea of working up a load in a rifled NEF HandiRifle barrel makes sense.I believe NEF uses a 10-gauge blank to make the 12-gauge slug barrel, and I am reasonably certain that it would be strong enough to handle just about any black powder load using a heavy conical.

Fellows, if you want to see a very nice conversion to rifled double 12 bore rifle, get the Volume fourteen, issue 1, spring 2003, Double gun Journal, page 29 . this is a damaskus double sleeved int a rifled 12 bore double rifle, with quarter rib, and ramp front sight, Warne QD rings and bases with a K-3 weaver scope ! The rifled barrel blanks from Hastings were sleeved in. This is a very well done conversion! Check it out!

Ross has done a lot of BORE rifle work, and knows his stuff!

[ 11-12-2003, 22:38: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Mac: Thanks for the tip. I will see if they have that issue at the library.
By the way, the H&R/NEF Ultra Slug gun comes with a 1:35 twist in the 12 bore version, 1:28 in 20.

Just for giggles, I found that 150 grains of Goex FFg drop-tubed into a Remington STS 12-gauge hull leaves room for a card wad, a bluestreak cushion wad, and an 835-grain Paradox-style conical seated to right where the roll crimp should go.
And yes, I know, GET A LIFE, Bill!

[ 11-13-2003, 00:15: Message edited by: Bill/Oregon ]

Hello to eveyone.
I've enjoyed reading the posts about the 12 bore rifles very much. I was thinking about building a 12 bore muzzleloading rifle a couple of years ago but instead discovered the H&R line of single shot rifled slug guns. I bought a Ultra Slug in 12 ga. and it has become one of my favorite guns. I shoot it mainly with black powder and roundballs for "plinking" and use a bullet cast from a modified Lyman sabot slug mould for hunting. The Lyman bullet is designed to go inside a shot cup and is actually sub-bore, but I couldn't get them to shoot in my gun so the mould was opened up to cast a bullet .740 out of 20:1 lead/tin in order to use it without the shotcup. The new bullet weighs 595 grains and is very accurate. I usually fill the hollow base of the bullet with bullet lube and it seems to shoot more accurately thus loaded.
I buy new, primed Fiocci 3" hulls for loading this gun and bought a roll crimper from Ballistic products. I was amazed at how easy the roll crimper was to use and the crimps look like factory! It makes for a very impressive looking cartridge indeed.
Both the round ball (600 grain) and the slug will cut one ragged hole at 50 yards. My light load is the roundball with 120 grains of WANO powder. I use an over powder wad and a filler wad (from Ballistic Products) under the bullet. I use a pinch of 2/3 beeswax 1/3 Crisco for lube. This load gives 1100 fps and I even killed a deer with it last year.
Velocity wise, the top load has been a 200 grain equivilant load of Pyrodex P (slightly compressed) sans wadding with the hollow base of the bullet filled with the above lube. It gives 1600 fps and shoots about an inch at 50 yards.
I couldn't be more pleased with my gun and would recomend them to anyone who wants to have a really big bore rifle at a very reasonable cost.

Wren

Wren: Thanks so much for your post. I just may have to scare up an Ultra myself. Just curious, but would your roll crimper allow you to apply the crimp on a paradox-shaped conical with some of the nose sticking out?

Bill,
I believe one could use a paradox style bullet and still have it work with the roll crimp (from "eyeballing" one of the bullets in the NEI catalog) but the bullet would have to be seated lower in the case than for the round ball or the Lyman bullet. This wouldn't be too much of a problem I don't think. The case capacity would be reduced, but that would only come into play if one were loading maximum black powder or Pyrodex loads. The max. load of smokeless that I have used is with 50 grains of Blue Dot for just under 1600 fps.
Another option might be to bore out the inside of the roll crimper or fasion another one (they look pretty simple) to accomodate the paradox bullet.

What mould do you have for the paradox bullets?

Wren

Wren: I don't have the mould for the paradox bullet, but I am pretty sure it came from NEI No. 399, the 732-835. The slugs measure about .730, and weigh right at 835 grains, with one large grese groove. I also have an example or two of a .730 flatpoint that weighs something like 1,100 grains -- my scale only goes to 1,010. I don't know what mould it might have come from. I got these slugs and a stash of .720 roundballs when I bought a Kodiak .72 double rifle from a fellow in the Midwest. I had a lot of fun with that rifle, but no longer own it. But I look at those wonderful "cotton-spool" paradox slugs and think of Samuel Baker and his various gauge guns.

Bill,
If memory serves I think my gun's groove diameter is .735" with grooves running about .005" per side. Don't quote me on this, but I think that's correct.
For my money, the RB is hard to beat for plinking (if there is such a thing when one is throwing 1-1/3 oz. of lead) as well as hunting too if one mould has to do double duty; the round balls are about the easiest bullet to cast and there's no hollow base plug to fool with. I like the Lyman bullet very much as well, and it surely is a better killer with it's large, flat nose, but it's harder to cast and the mould I'm using had to be opened up to the full diameter as I mentioned in an earlier post. I have some photos of the bullets and targets that I have shot and if I can figure out how to post them to a webpage I'll provide the link if y'all are interested....
Wren

Gil Sengel did an article in Handloader about 15 years back called "The 12 Bore Ball Gun". My copy has since disappeared but it's worth digging out if you have the back copies of the '80s.

I'd sure appreciate a scanned copy if anyone digs it out. I'm still using one of the loads from it but would like the rest of the article.

I'm shooting .735 RBs at 1400 fps in a Greener Police Special I had rifled by a guy in WVa. It's the original gun that kills at both ends and one of my buddies dubbed it "Attila the Gun".

Leftover: According to my Master Index Gil Sengel's article would have been in Handloader No. 106, last issue of 1983, page 42. Don't have it, but will watch for it.

Leftoverdj,
What load are you using for the round ball?
Count me in on the reprint of the Handloader article.
Wren

I tried to find the article but don't have it. I'm still looking and will scan if I find it. However, if anyone else has it I'd appreciate it if you shared with us. It would save me some aggravation!

While you're waiting for the scanned article, check out the Fosbery projectiles we cast in Australia for use in 12-bore Paradox guns. My mold was made by Jim Allison of Cast Bullet Engineering, and has an adjustable hollow-point to throw weights from 690 to 750 grains.





The guys here used to crimp by spinning the cartridge in a lathe, and using modified circlip pliers to apply the crimp (above). These days, all crimping is done using a purpose-built roll crimper as illustrated in Graeme Wright's chapter on Loading for the Paradox.