The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Knock over power (not knock out)Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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When I took my 400 Whelen to Tanzania last month, I was surprised when I started shooting game. Almost everything I hit was knocked over (off it's feet) by the bullets impact, including a 400 lb. waterbuck. I'd read a lot of articles on the 400 Whelen (including historical ones), but I don't remember anyone ever mentioning that. (And I should point out that none of these were spine shots). So, on medium sized game, where does "knock over" start to be seen? 375? 400 and above? In 1999 I shot a kudu bull at 30 to 50 feet with my 404 Jeffery (I surprised him on the other side of a hill), and the same thing happend. However, in that case I just attributed it to being so close (that was practically bow and arrow range). Thoughts? Garrett | ||
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I've seen that effect with a number of calibers, from .243 Ackley Improved 40* to .25-06 to .300Wby. to .338WinMag to .375H&H, plus a number of 'handcannon' cartridges from 65mmJDJ to .309JDJ to .375JDJ. I think the biggest factor is that the game is relaxed/unaware at the time you fire. George  | |||
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There are pages and pages on the subject. But we can start more here.  I think you mean "fall over power" since bullets cannot lift big game into the air and throw it down. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I knocked over a deer at 180 yds with my 300 Win Shooting 180gr bullets. I thought it was the power of that round in Ft Lbs That knocked the deer down. | |||
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It does happen, without grossly visible spine trauma. Relaxed state of animal? O.K., that may help. Or is it being dynamically imbalanced when alert to the hunter and about to bolt or turn, and thus being easier to topple, regardless of terrain? A very important factor in toppling suddenly, is that the bullet is a fully expanded soft point, and stays within the animal, maybe bulging the offside hide as it comes to rest, but dumping all energy in a vector of force that will tend to imbalance the stance, and topple RIGHT NOW. The most dramatic example I have had is an 1830 pound bison bull knocked flat onto his left side by a 500 A-Square soft point (XLC 570 grainer at 2400 fps) that entered the right side of his chest. He was knocked over onto his off side by a center chest hit at 75 yards, but got up immediately and began to run off. A 570 grain GSC FN then brought him down again as he ran, Portuguese Heart Shot exiting, in rump and out neck. Another dramatic one was an 800 pound cow moose similarly hit by a .458 WinMag with 500 grain Hornady soft, handloaded to 2150 fps. She went down, slapped over onto the offside, and didn't move again. This time the bullet shed its core, producing an empty jacket and two chunks of lead core, each of the three main fragments breaking a rib on the offside. These two critters were not lifted off their feet but they got a momentum transfer that swatted them over sideways, even with an almost one ton bison. 400 Whelen softs do dump significant momentum and usually stay inside the animal, eh? Maybe high shots in the chest, between heart and spine, are part of this phenomenon? Besides the "tipping" impulse of the bullet momentum, maybe a reflex collapse due to a momentary impulse to the nondisrupted spinal cord? The bison I knocked flat was hit higher than I wanted, due to a hasty shot with a large white granpa bead, iron sights. Is some sort of neurologic discharge involved, or just momentum and balance factors, or all of this? | |||
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interesting response RIP, I have seen the same response from the ones I have shot...drop, then struggle back up. Go thirty feet or so and then go down for good. Good eating too. In about a month we will blood the 510KX on 2007's meat supply. Rich | |||
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Good luck, Rich. Things are getting pretty slow on the forums that we are discussing this again, eh? Well, we know the momentum numbers in themselves are not enough, as we absorb similar momentum in the kick of the rifle. Must be some kind of "weak knee" reflex and a push over related to a shove of the center of gravity past the balance point. | |||
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And it helps if your cartridge is named after someone famous.  Such as Lott, Rigby, Capstick, etc. | |||
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I shot a whitetail deer this week end, shoulder shot and it knocked the deer down, It got back up and ran, later recovered. taken many deer with bow, first time that happened. | |||
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So even an arrow can do it? Must be a discombobulated muscle reflex that makes the animal startle, stumble, and fall. Maybe the noise of a muzzle blast up close encourages "knock-over" as it seems to happen more often with firearms than with arrows. The animal goes spastic and falls down and goes boom. | |||
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One point I was making was that all the game I shot with the 400 Whelen was knocked over, with the exception of the hippo (which was shot in the brain and collapsed and fell down...not the same thing)and an impala that I shot for the game scout's outpost (for meat), that I hit very low in the chest (a bad shot). All 3 trackers said I missed it. It ran about 30 or 40 yards in front of us and fell down dead. I have also seen deer knocked off their feet by a bullet, but it's not that frequent. This was the first time I saw everything knocked over. The 400 Whelen is not all that powerful a weapon as far as big bores go. That is why I remain surprised. By the way...I am definetly using it on whitetail in about 2 weeks. Garrett | |||
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What bullets did you use and how fast.It seems there is a critical knock down factor where the bullet starts to have more resistance as it slows down instead of zipping through when its faster.Elmer Keith loved the 400 whelen but headspace was a problem.My 338 win mag hits harder on deer the further out I shoot deer.It flips them when the are over 200 yards and flattens them.I think my 338 does it when it slows down to 2400 fps down from 2950fps.Its kinda backwards from paper energy.I think the more resistance the bullet has as it slows down the more it actually transfers the energy to the animal instead of blowing it out the other soide. | |||
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My 375 has knocked over whitetail deer. But the most amazing knock over i've ever seen was on a whitetail from a 300 weatherby, at about 70 yards. It actually rolled the deer over. | |||
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Most all of the animals were shot with a Barnes X (300 grains) at 2450 fps. A hartebeast and waterbuck were shot with the Swift A-frames (350 grains) at 2300 fps, also knocking them over. Garrett | |||
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  It is amazeing the number of old wife's tales that refuse to die!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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no bullet knocks an animal over or down...it's all nervous system/muscle reaction...you step on a nail you jump in the air...the nail did not throw you in the air... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If I pull the trigger and the animal goes off its feet and does not get back up...then I don't care what the physics, etc are; I knocked him down with the shot and he is still dead! Rich | |||
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The animal recoils sideways from the pain of the entry wound, reflexively, stumbles in the sidestep and flops over on its side. That has got to be it.  Sometimes animals recoil upward when a solid bullet zips through the humerus and heart and out the other side. It hurts on both sides, down low so they buck like a rodeo bull getting away from that stinger in the lower chest. That is what my Botswana cape buffalo did. It was a one shot kill and his left shoulder was broken, and heart perforated. He went straight up in the air. I would say that 400 Whelen bullets hurt going in. | |||
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