The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .600 Rothschild Rimless Belted Nitro, Super Nitro and Ultra NitroGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Gentleman, I present a stable of .600 cartridges to fill the need for recoil to the heavy rifle fraternity. All of these are non-proprietary designs and are freely available to anyone who wants one. These designs are practical, workable and well-balanced with good taper for feeding and long parallel throats and easy entry into the lands for low pressures. I had decided on the 0.688" headsize hoping (and still hold out hope) that A-Sqaure would begin making drawn brass. The .600 Rothschild Rimless Belted was designed for receivers limited to magazine capacities of 3.60-3.65" length.  The .600 Rothschild Super Nitro Express was designed to take full advantage of the easily attainable magazine capacity of 3.785" length of the Enfield and the Oly Arms Ultramag receiver.  The .600 Rothschild Ultra Nitro Express was designed to take advantage of the upcoming Montana Rifleman Professional Hunter receiver.  Reamers are available from Dave Kiff at http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/ Lathe turned brass with the headstamp engraved are available from Dave Casey at http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/ note the lathe turned brass is limited to a pressure of ~36kpsi. To replicate the .600 Nitro double loads will be easy without exceeding that pressure limit. Brass without the headstamp are avalable from Bridger Bullets, email for info at info@bridgerbullets.com Reloading dies and tools are available from Dave Davison at http://www.ch4d.com/ To keep your pressures safe you will want pressure testing equipment available from http://www.shootingsoftware.com/index.htm [ 06-08-2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ] | ||
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Roger, You are a good big bore cartridge designer my friend. I got a PH on order and might consider one of your brainchilds when it's ready. Thanks. | |||
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Roger, Honest question ... to improve my perspective ... what is the attraction of bores over .500? Is it the exterior ballistic desirability of transferring more energy to the target because of increased frontal area? I'd have kinda thought that 470 NE and the various 500s would deliver enough to qualify as effective "stoppers." thanks! | |||
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quote:A .243 will certainly kill an elk, but there are thousands of guys who prefer a .338. Roger, beautiful work! My only concern is getting an action with a bolt large enough in diameter to handle .688. I know A-Square did it on the P-14, but other than that it looks like the Granite Mountain action and the upcoming Montana PH action (which does not exist yet) are the choices. [ 06-08-2003, 19:14: Message edited by: 500grains ] | |||
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With a .688 Rim and belt the ONLY actions that will work are a much reworked and re-heat treated 1917 Enfield/P14 ala A-square( with the inner action ring opened up), the GMA action ( prepare for a massive Gunsmithing bill on top of the purchase price) maybe a Prarie Gunworks and Maybe the Montanna PH( again the amount of work required to get these actions to feed and extract this size cartridge is non- trivial. ( I put 30 hrs into my GMA action). This is exactly why I stayed away from this in designing the 600 Overkill-1. I would consider a McBros action with a .688 boltface ( they will make it custom for you) and all that would probably be necessary is to fabricate a new Mag Box. This is actually one of the easiest ways to go although you then have to consider the even easier( way more powerfull) option of a 600 built on the .50BMG case!-Rob [ 06-08-2003, 21:33: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ] | |||
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It is probably a silly question that I am asking now (as well as many others in this bigbore forum ;-)): But if, for no particularly good reason except the fun of it, I were to have a rifle chambered for the 12,7 x 81 Breda (also known as .5 Vickers in Great Britain), would a repeater be possible, would a double rifle be feasible, or is only a single shot sensible ? Evidently, the purpose would be a big game rifle. Thanks very much, Carcano | |||
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I was wondering if the CZ 550 can be made to work with the 577 T-Rex without worring about the bolt face. I was thinking maybe turning the rim off the bolt face and then weld some material to the left bolt lug to extend it up to the bolt face to serve as an engagement rim like A-Square did to the P-14. Any thoughts? Thanks! | |||
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Mike, These dinosaur rifle cartridges are just for laughs, for kicks. Surely they are just bench toys, and not meant for hunting. Who in the heck wants to be the laughing stock grunting along with a 14 pound muzzle braked rifle with a rainbow trajectory in the game field? Not me. If a .375 H&H will allow one to hunt anything, both legally and ethically, then the more the merrier in bore size and/or case capacity, sure, but there comes a point when it is just goofiness! Or dare I say personal insecurity, or "bore envy," of the gunnut? The various 40 to 50 caliber sporting rifles that are well balanced and weigh less than twelve pounds (closer to ten pounds is ideal) and are comfortable to carry and shoot without a muzzle brake are more than enough for any purpose. Even a PH with something over 50 caliber should raise eyebrows. Who is he trying to impress, and why? There are many sensible "more than enough" choices for tough game, based on practical considerations. This is the opposite end of the "need cartridge bigger than .375 H&H debate" from the ridiculous "king with no clothes" 400 H&H. Just sign me "Dirty Ronnie," servant of public safety and sensibility. HoHoHoGeezisHoHoHo! | |||
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Where is the big bore DagaRon we used to know? ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <Axel> |
Robgunbuilder, why is the P14 ok and the other mauser derivatives are not? What makes the P14/M1917 special? Thanks, Axel | ||
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Roger, You must have to much time on your hands now with the looong days up north. One problem with this case as robgunbuilder has said. The large dia of the case won't work properly thru a action with a .700 dia bolt. This is due to the feed angle coming from the magazine to the chamber. Also the cartidge rim diameter vs the bolt diameter causes problems with the bolt face. I have modified a action once this way. With a long piloted bar and a cutter inserted into it. Set a fixture plate and angle plate up on your mill. Then dial in the center of the action to your quill center. Then line bore the bolt dia out to the larger .75 diameter. A new bolt with the proper larger dia and steel must be MADE heattreated and fitted. This would allow the Enfield and CZ action handle this case better. Did some head scratching on the Magazine boxes, with an rear ID width of 1.125. You need a depth of 1.800 at the rear to hold three rounds in the box, with a standard floor plate. To gain the fourth round a Schueller floorplate with a depth of just over .40 is needed. Roger the last problem I see Is how are you going to get all the writing on the case head? I will have to play with some CAD and try to work it out. Like I've told Jack Belk, every time I start to think about things it always cost me money. I have had a 600 OK1 case here in front of me for a while. I still keep telling myself I don't need one. But on the other hand why not. You have to remember that this cartidge kills on the muzzle end and can maim on the recoil end [ 06-09-2003, 01:49: Message edited by: J Wisner ] | |||
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quote:In order to take life, sometimes you must be willing to give up flesh (or bone). | |||
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Roger's case does have the right slant to the sides,as I feel the Ok doesn't when you get to higher pressures.The .682 belt of the OK is fine. So here goes.Why not consolidate the ideas and get more people involved to say get 3 times as much brass made.Or more.Use a .682 belt, and that rim if wanted or rebate rim like OK case. Incorporate more slant by having the base ahead of belt .665 to a .650 at the mouth.The .017 belt height(.682 minus .655) is plenty on big cases ,as that is whats on my 458 HE and been fired 1900 times.And this case is bigger at the base.We are not having slop jocks do the chambering in a factory to screw up the headspace.The.650 at the mouth is plenty as it gives the sides at the mouth .015 thickness.That gives 5 times the slant that OK has now(.003 compared to .015). Just a thought, as I would like to see a hundred folks have these with thousands of rounds of good brass made.I absolutely know that for big bores, straight belted cases are best, and will help to get them developed and made in large numbers anyway possible.Ed. | |||
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A correction on my writing above.The belt height of .017(.682 - .665). Also to make changes at Horneber the punches and heading equip would stay the same.Only the belt and outside swaging dies would have to be changed a little. We big bore nuts shouldn't do the small bore shuffle,IE have 1000 almost similiar designs to propel a .243 dia bullet for example.perhaps time to get a standard in this one instance, and more important, get a bunch of great brass in everyones hand.Ed. | |||
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DagaRon posted: These dinosaur rifle cartridges are just for laughs, for kicks. Surely they are just bench toys, and not meant for hunting. Who in the heck wants to be the laughing stock grunting along with a 14 pound muzzle braked rifle with a rainbow trajectory in the game field? Not me. If a .375 H&H will allow one to hunt anything, both legally and ethically, then the more the merrier in bore size and/or case capacity, sure, but there comes a point when it is just goofiness! Or dare I say personal insecurity, or "bore envy," of the gunnut? Surely the above would also apply to shooting white tail deer size animals with the 375 and 458 Winchester, especially from the view point of a seasoned 270 user who thinks a 338 is way over the top. Mike [ 06-09-2003, 05:19: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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Ming, The folly of youth has faded to wisdom. Note, however, that I have never owned a rifle bigger than a .510, so I have never been foolish. However, I have been sorely tempted when I was still wet behind the ears. Mike, Of course the reason for shooting deer with a .375, .416, .458, even a 50 cal, might be that one is limited in opportunities for really big game, so stays in practice with the big bore on the smaller stuff, even varmints with the deer rifle would be the same. I am guilty of shooting crows with a .340 Weatherby, deer and goats with a .416 Rigby, marmots and moose with a .458 WinMag. Don't you shoot all manner of critters with rifles of .375 caliber and up? How about a rundown on the critter vs. rifle cartridge used by you? 460 Wby: roos, goats, pigs, etc. 375 H&H: donkeys, camels, house cats, etc. .416 Wby: rabbits ... Good practice with portable, shootable rifles. | |||
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460 Wby: roos, goats, pigs, etc. 375 H&H: donkeys, camels, house cats, etc. .416 Wby: rabbits ... Very effective On "hits to shots fired" I have probably shot about an equal number of roos on the flat ground with the 270, 308, 300 Win and 375 and the results have been about the same. However it might have been different if only one or two animals were being shot on a trip because as we often say down here "you seem to get onto them" I have also shot a lot with the 458 Win loaded to just over 2000 f/s with 400 grain Speer (70 grains 4064) and I think my hits to shots fired were much the same with that combination. Mike | |||
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I'd like to answer some of the E-Mail I've been getting publicly. First Roger has admitted in the past that his cartridge designs were derived from the 600 OK-1 and 2. Rodger is not attempting to claim that they supersceeded the development of the 600 OK-1 which they did not. I've covered that buisness pretty thoroughly. The idea of a belted 600 NE was mine and Rodger is not trying to claim otherwise. As far as I've been able to document this modification was never done before! I've looked into the legalities of cartridge design and it's virtually impossible to patent a cartridge. Thus, anyone can and I'm sure will make any modifications they choose.Personally, I would state the derivation of the cartridge in its name to avoid the appearance of a "copy cat". AS far as I'm concerned the 600 OK-1 is fine as is. The 600 OK-2 is a 3.2 inch case and has a .682 rim. It was actually conceived before the OK-1, but was shelved in favor of the OK-1 because of concerns about feeding. I did not have a GMA action at the time and was basing the development on a CZ550 and usefullness in a Ruger number 1. Mingo _ I would strongly advise against any attempt to "weld-up" a CZ bolt as you describe. I've tried some similar ideas in the past and they simply did not work out! The bolt would need to be re-case hardened anyway and with the dis-similar metals involved I have seen severe warpage occur( The case hardening was done by experts). Severe enough that the bolt was trashed! Machining up a new bolt is not that hard to do for any competent machinist( as J Wisner described) and at least it can be properly heat treated. A-Square also opened up the inner ring of their 1917 Enfields for clearance( again similarly to J Wisners description) and that is not something that I at least would reccomend ( I've done one this way also). Re-heat treatment of a 1917 Enfield action is also necessary unless you want a Grenade going off beside you head. Play it safe and if you want a Big Bore like this pay the money and get an action that will stand up to it!-Rob [ 06-09-2003, 08:44: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ] | |||
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How about that 600 made from shortened, swaged down 50 BMG cases that Roger was considering eons ago before the 600 OK was a twinkle in Rob's eye. It would be interesting to find the description of that case again. Now that is a big boy toy. A search seems to be in order. A gunnut can design a cartridge and call it what he wants regardless. Roger's scheme is an excellent tour de farce. Certainly a lot better than the 400 H&H. And so is the 600 OK-1 and -2. Pinky fingers need not be extended when firing either of these 600's. | |||
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Dagga, The 50 BMG shortened and swaged and rim rebated was done by a guy named Gerald Quintel in Michigan. He built them on a military model 98 with one in the chamber and one in the magazine. Cost was a bit prohibitive at $3500 for a barreled action, considering that building such a monster on a model 98 is really a Rube Goldberg arrangement. But is has been done successfully more than once. Personally, I think that the 600 OK-1 is the best compromise in dimensions and feedability. I am not convinced that the additional powder capacity of the 600 OK-2 is a good thing except for people who insist on max loads. | |||
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Posted to Roger be e-mail earlier: Rog, Please excuse me ... I really did not intend to aggravate you ... nor to imply that the pursuit was without merit. Was a question that may not have been well phrased ,,, might have been better phrased "is the goal (or one of them) in increasing diameter well above .500, to improve the energy transfer to the target? If not, what is the goal?" Maybe another way to express the question: "What part does prediction or pre-analysis of knock down and penetration play in big bore cartridge design?" May be wise to remember that my natural tendency will be toward curiosity rather than judgement. BTW, will spend the day working with 470 NE ... would be considered well over the top by most shooters in WV. I can't afford to be too judgmental! ;>  | |||
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mstarling, A bigger bore transfers more shock to the animal and creates a bigger wound channel for the animal to bleed out. A heavier bullet will tend to break heavy bone rather than deflect if it strikes at an angle. All of the above comes with a price: decreased penetration. The above being said, most will agree that if the bigger bore causes any substantial decrease in marksmanship, then a smaller bore is in order. There is another objective here as well: building and shooting the biggest bore that can be made in a carryable shoulder-fired game rifle. It is pretty clear from the work done up until now that .620 is the max. At .700, an oversized action such as a McBros is needed, taking the rifle out of the hunting rifle category. | |||
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DagaRon- When I researched the 600 OK-1, I came accross at least 6 versions of shortened .50 BMG cases necked to.338, .500,.600. and .700. Each had some serious flaws, which revolved around attempts to get them to feed through std .700 bolt raceway actions. As 500 grs pointed out Gerry Quintiles probably has been making them for 15 years or so. It isn't pretty, but I'm sure it will work. Interestingly, there were no .600's on the full length .50 BMG case. It's not clear why. My version worked out just fine, however I had to use a second shoulder for fireforming. Mine will do 3100fps or more with a 900 gr. Bullet. I also no longer believe that a 14lb rifle cannot be built using a McBros repeater action that cannot be effectively used for hunting! Many Buff hunts require only a short stalk of a mile or two at max and I for one can and have carried guns of that weight for much longer periods than that! Try humping a M60 all day long!The Mcbros will feel like a matchstick! With respect to cartridge development. As you recognize, I've done ALOT of work on the .600 OK-1 and OK-2 to this point and while I recognize and applaud the continuous improvement in cases. I just don't want the History of this cartridge to get "Foggy". You know what I mean!-Rob | |||
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Years ago I developed my first wildcat, a 600, a 620 HE Belted and 620 HE Rimmed.In the early seventies.From 55 cal Boyes Antitank belted brass.Never went any further than building cases as the Boyes brass was Berdan primed.Never pushed it as it seemed too hard to find and change over to Boxer primed.That is why I have asked about a supply of 55 cal brass. Finally figured a way to put in a large rifle primer adapter.If cases could be found in quantity and cheap, I could build 620 HE for a fraction of 600 NE brass.The Boyes case is real easy to make smaller, so that the straight taper is right for the 600. And without any dangerous swaging of the head.With a proper radius from the head to the sides.That 620 HE case is the main reason I want MRC to make their PH action, with the .800 diameter bolt ,longer as the belt and rim is .750 in. I keep hoping to find a barrel full of 55 cal brass.I will get pictures on in couple days. The boy has to do that for me.Ed. | |||
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I'm gonna rebate the .600 OK-1 rim to 7.62X39 diameter , shorten it and get it to feed through a AR-15 ala the .50 Beowulf that Axel so loves! I'm gonna call it the .600 Anililator.-Rob | |||
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Rob, I understand that any welding would involve heat and might cause wrapage problems but I have seen some elegant welding jobs done on a revolver's top frame, which to me would be a much more complicated job than welding up a bolt lug. I am sure it can be done by a true welding expert. Thanks. | |||
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Mingo- a revolver top frame isn't holding 60,000 PSI. Unless you know exactly what alloy was used in your bolt and then use welding rod of exactly that alloy your going to have differences in the final hardness of the bolt once it's heat treated. How good the weld looks has nothing to do with how strong it actually is!. The dissimilarity in metals can lead to warparge and may have a tendency to fracture under stress. Trust me,you don't want to have anyone weld up your bolt no matter how good they are or say they are. Have a proper one machined instead to whatever specs you want. It's not that hard to do. I would not want my precious head anywhere near a gun with a bolt welded up by anybody when dealing with these power levels. You'll notice that no one offers any commercial actions with rewelded bolts.-Rob | |||
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Please bear with me, if I dare bring my question back to top... quote: | |||
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| <Axel> |
quote:I added the bold faced statements to Rob's post. Just attempting to clarify a few of Rob's points. Rob, when do you think you will have your .600 AR cartridge ready and working in an AR rifle? Could you possibly do a .700 if you used an AR10? Axel | ||
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Carcano-The .5 Vickers would be a great bolt rifle case.Work in the MRC PH action.Is there a good suppy of brass around??Ed. | |||
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Axel- For once, I actually agree with most of your points although not completely. My point is simply to provide others some sound advice on what may on the surface seem like a good idea but in reality is extremely dangerous. I have extensive welding training and a ton of experience, as well as a small fortune in TIG welding gear and I've tried some of the above and It's a waste of time and a potential E ticket to the graveyard. With that said, people are free to do as they please! So Axel if you turn down the rim of a .50 BMG to the exact rim diameter of a 7.62X39 ala a .50 Beowulf and shorten the case do you think a .700 Beowulf on a AR10 would work? THAT would be a TRIP!-Rob | |||
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Here is a picture of the 620 HE I developed the brass for years ago.1st is 458 Win--2nd is 458 HE--3rd is 550 HE---4th is the 620 HE--5th is 700HE for comparison.If I can get supply of 55 cal Boyes brass that I made the 620 from, I will change it to the 658 HE, which gives it the same exact taper as the 700 HE.And won't be competing with the 600s that are being developed.The 620 has a .653 rim and belt, and is .633 ahead of belt,It is 3.87 in long straight belted case.In the 658 HE size , with 900 gr bullet and 270 gr of ball powder it will get about 3000 fps.658 HE has a nice ring to it.Ed.  | |||
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| <Axel> |
Robgunbuilder, the AR10 would not need a rim rebated to 7.62X39 size. You would only need to rebate to 7.62X51 NATO size! What an improvement! Your overall cartridge length could be dramatically increased over that of the 50 Beowulf too!! What kind of welding training have you received? What certifications do you have? Axel | ||
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Axel- What is the maximal receiver ring dimensions of an AR-10? Does it use use a Barrel nut locking lug system like an AR-15? Assuming a .700 barrel will require a minimum of a 1.3 inch major diameter thread for safety, would that even fit through a AR-10? Frankly, anything that headspaces on it's rim ala the .50 Beowulf is a pretty poor design IMHO. The .50 Beowulf requires a taper crimped cartridge to function and with just a little too much pressure while reloading, you can induce variable headspace. No big deal at 28 Kpsi ( limited by the LARGE PISTOL PRIMERS IT REQUIRES). A very big deal at 55 KPSI-Rob | |||
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| <Axel> |
Robgunbuilder, unsure as to what the receiver on the AR10 can handle. I know that there are 12 gauge shotguns built on AK systems though. If you can fit a 12 gauge into an AK, I figured you could figure out how to fit a .700 BiBaMuFu into a AR10 upper. Why do you say that the 50 Beowulf is limited to 28ksi due to LARGE PISTOL PRIMER??? I have seen 45-70 and 50-70 smokeless powder loads with LARGE RIFLE PRIMER that had 28ksi pressure. If you load the 50 Beowulf with the same powders as the 50-70 or 45-70 and used the LARGE RIFLE PRIMER you would get the same 28ksi, no? Axel | ||
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Rodger-I feel compelled to tell you how I feel as a long time lurker on this site. I can't believe that you posted this here for everyone to see! It's one thing to steal an idea and hide it and another to claim it publicly as your own! It looks to me like all you have done is change a coupla minor dimensions so as to try and steal the idea of a belted .600 Nitro express from Robgunbuilder! Boy now thats an accomplishment. Bet your proud of that!You've just taken his ideas,copied where he gets his brass from and Poof you're a great cartridge designer. Man from where I come from thats pretty low! It amazes me that some of the other guys who post regularly here like DaggaRon and Mingo even support you. Guess that says something about their ethics too! Even Axel has not stuped this low! I don't post here often because there are so many posers and bullshit artists but I just can't let this one go. This forum has really degraded lately and You have set a new low. Robgunbuilder, You do outstanding work and you should be really proud of it. Don't let these assholes get you down!They could not match your work no matter what they do. I am calling a spade a spade arn't I? | |||
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Rodger-I feel compelled to tell you how I feel as a long time lurker on this site. I can't believe that you posted this here for everyone to see! It's one thing to steal an idea and hide it and another to claim it publicly as your own! It looks to me like all you have done is change a coupla minor dimensions so as to try and steal the idea of a belted .600 Nitro express from Robgunbuilder! Boy now thats an accomplishment. Bet your proud of that!You've just taken his ideas,copied where he gets his brass from and Poof you're a great cartridge designer. Man from where I come from thats pretty low! It amazes me that some of the other guys who post regularly here like DaggaRon and Mingo even support you. Guess that says something about their ethics too! Even Axel has not stuped this low! I don't post here often because there are so many posers and bullshit artists but I just can't let this one go. This forum has really degraded lately and You have set a new low. Robgunbuilder, You do outstanding work and you should be really proud of it. Don't let these assholes get you down!They could not match your work no matter what they do. I am calling a spade a spade arn't I? ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <Axel> |
470nitro, who are you? Not too long ago you said you were an engineer named SS. The obvious conclusion is you are Todd E. Now you say you are a lawyer, is you name still Scott Sweet aka Todd E? You say you hate me and I am a jerk, what did I ever do to you? Your posts are always negative and attacking someone. Again the obvious conclusion is that you ARE posting under this assumed named to protect your TRUE posting identity. So who are you?? My name is Axel Dempel, WHAT IS YOURS? quote:Everyone please note the -SS at the end of 470nitro's post above. If he is Scott Sweet as he is stating perhaps he can tell us were he is right now? Axel [ 06-15-2003, 18:23: Message edited by: Axel ] | ||
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