So I'm on my fourth loading of BeLL .458 Lott brass. I loaded 20 in this batch, and have fired four. All four show a "bright ring" about 3/4" up from the belt, which is not where I'd expect the "bright ring" to be. I'm relatively new to rifle cartridge loading, and based on my reading, the ring should be down near the belt. I'm wondering if this is totally abnormal, and whether or not I should unload the other 16 rounds. Brass is not that precious to me, but I do hate to waste them (and opening day is Saturday-- yeah, I'm going to go deer hunting with it).

The load in question is 75 gr. of H-4198, under a Barnes-X 300 gr. bullet. That should NOT be a high pressure load! However, I do feel a recessed ring on the inside of the case below the bright ring. This is/was not on the brass before the fourth firing.

Obviously, I should toss the brass after this firing, but dare I fire the rest of them? Your advice politely requested. Thanks!

Pertinax

[ 10-16-2003, 03:24: Message edited by: pertinax ]

Make up a piece of bent coat hanger or similar wire with a bend at the end with a sharpened point. Use this tool to check for a possible case head separation about to take place. The bright ring usually means a case separation is about to occur. Be sure to check carefully. The tool is inserted in the case all the way to the bottom and dragged slowly up the side of the case to feel for a low area indicating the thinning of the brass in the area of the bright ring.

Bob is right..

but, if you are going to toss em anyway, cut the case in half, length wise, and look at it!!

tell us what you see

jeffe

Common on improperly chambered barrels for belted cartridges: Too much headspace on the belt.

Especially common on 458 Win mags that have been rechambered to 458 Lott, it is real, real easy to let the reamer sneek up too far in the barrel and cut the belt recess too deep. Jack Lott had the cure: The belt on his original reamer did not cut, it acted to hold the reamer back. Neat trick. Just run the reamer into the barrel until it did not go any more. Of course this only worked on a barrel already chambered for the 458 Win.

Add a large diameter chamber at the base (also very common) and you have the perfect situation for case head seperation.

Details:

GoGauge is 0.220". Average cases are 0.214 to 0.216 on the belt thickness. Some Remington cases are 0.208". Can't recall what the Bell belt thickness is, I will have to measure some cases tomorrow. But, thickness goes by the lot number and depends on how nicely the operator adjusts the dies on the punch press.

Sooo: Chamber so a bolt closes easy on the Go gauge, but not on a NoGo (0.225") and you may have up to 0.016" or so excessive headspace, depends on the case make. This is why we have the dreaded case seperation on belted brass. Also contributes to missfires, hangfires, and backed out primers.

The solution? Chamber for 0.002" or so over the brass belt thickness. But, gotta be careful, especially on a big bore DGR, other wise you may not be able to chamber ammo you borrowed from your buddy that has different make brass. Could get exciting if you lost your 375 H&H or 458 Lott ammo, borrow some that has a too thick belt, load the magazine, and walk up to a herd of Cape Buff. Ain't no way a round will go into the chamber and allow the bolt to close.

For this reason, chamber the DGR so it takes all makes of brass, and it is advised to load up the serious hunting ammo in new cases and consider the cases expendable when on the hunt.

Search headspace on the AR forums, I posted a lot of info several months ago about belted cases.

Below is a photo of a gauge I made that accurately measures the belt thickness. Showing RP brass at 0.208 belt thickness.

Damn details, who pays attention any more!!!



[ 10-16-2003, 06:36: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

John,
Can I have one of those? (buy)

jeffe

I do indeed feel that "low area" where the bright ring is. I do not find that on brass fired three times in the same gun.

I guess I'll pull the bullets, and load fresh brass for hunting. I do have extra brass, but I'm worried that something is wrong with my reloading setup, or my gun!

My gunsmith is fairly well known, and I hate to question him, as I do not have the equipment to tell if it's chambered incorrectly, nor is there another gunsmith around that would be better able to tell.

Mr. Ricks: in the situation you describe, is it plausible to see the bright ring this far away from the belt (about 3/4" above the "top" of the belt)? Every picture I've seen in a book shows it quite near the belt, and these are consistently the same distance above the belt (toward the mouth of the case).

Pertinax

Have you tried other brass? Perhaps this run of brass is creating the headspace problem (?).

A pressure ring mark 3/4" up from the belt may also reflect a sloppy chambering job. Bring it back in to your smith.

Interesting. I have just started to reload for a Whitworth 375 and have noticed the same thing, bright ring at least 3/4 # from the belt. I have tried the sharpened feeler and can feel no notch in the brass. I may take a dremel and sacrifice a case and see what the inside looks like. These are also cases which had been previously fired in a Ruger #1, so I realize this may be a factor. I'll load up some brand new cases and see what's what. bob

Wack one of the cases in 1/2 with a hacksaw, it will let you know what is going on inside the case.

It does sound odd to see the ring that high on the case, but perhaps that is where the case gets thicker on that brand of brass.

I could be dead wrong in this instance but the few times I ran into something that sounds like you describe, it proved to be brass related. Let's hope so. Keep us posted.

Oh go ahead and shoot em and welcome to the wonderfull world of belted magnums. Especially if your Lott was made by converting a 458 win. It's darn easy to go a few thousanths too deep while rechambering. I've seen commercial belted brass with .007-.010 too much headspace. Just look at the belted mag brass laying around at your local range. A partial head separation almost certainly won't occur and even if it does it won't hurt anything! It undoubtably is due to the combination of the brass your using and the gun having slightly too much headspace. The old stacked tolerance problem. Switch to a different brand of brass. I actually toss most belted brass after 5-7 reloads anyway!-Rob

I think I'm going to go ahead and pull them, and toss the brass. Probably will take it back to the smith.

But Rob, you still think it's safe to shoot them. Again, this is the fourth loading, and there is NO ring on the unfired brass.

And BTW, this gun started life as a .30-06. I'm a lefty, and this was custom built for me, using a Douglas barrel. The smith that did it has done others, and is the premier big bore builder in my area (Atlanta).

Thanks, everyone. (And keep making comments!)

Pertinax

I hacksawed a 375 case last nite with the bright ring about 3/4# up and found no notch in the case on the inside. Whatever is going on is not the case thinning that I can gather. Maybe my dies are leaving the mark? Bob

I don't want to be a smart ass, but just make sure that the "bright ring" doesn't exactly conform to the position of the round when placed in a plastic ammo case. I had a friend with a 505 Gibbs ream me out about just such a situation and it turned out to be his plastic ammo case that caused it. -Rob

Ditto that Rodgunbuilder. Did the same thing myself.

pertinax - Have a qualified person look things over. Nobody at this end can say for sure what's happening.

A final observation. Depending on what your chamber dimensions actually are vs what the sizing dies are, this may be the cause of your "bright ring". If your chamber is on the max dimension side ( as a true DGR's should be) and your dies are on the minimum side, your going to see a "bright ring" where the case is sized down. It often stops about 1/2" above the belt where the brass really doesn't expand much. Take a piece of brass and using the trusty Dremel cut it open. If there is no ridge inside, this is most probably the cause and you only have a cosmetic ring. Another option is look at your sizing die and see if it has a ring in it. Sometimes there are machine marks left in the sizing die that can cause this to happen also.-Rob

[ 10-18-2003, 02:51: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

pertinax-Yes you should section a case with
the bright ring to see what is happening.Also,
Take resized case with ring and a pliers and clamp
pliers on the belt at right angle to the case;
to swage the belt ahead by the grooves the
pliers make on the belt.Do it easy and then try
chambering it if it chambers easy you have to much headspace. Cause, short headspace on brass,
long headspace in chamber. or both.If I had it here I could do it, and then put brass on case lathe spinner and lenghthen the belt measurement

AND ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING, A DIFFERENT POWDER.
You need one slower like 4320, and use a little more.Also better is Dbl Base ball like W748 or
BLC-2.A full case.That x-bullet will make same
pressure as regular bullet 50-100 gr heavier.
You can go full loads of either of those two ball powders and your brass will last 20 or more rounds, with good headspace...Ed.

Pertinax,

If your 'smith is good and cares about his work, he'll be concerned too and immediately take a look at the rifle. Bring him some of the unloaded brass at 3 firings and then at 4 with the shiney ring.

All right, I yanked and loaded a few into new brass. Enough for this morning's hunt anyway, and I'll take the gun back to the 'smith ASAP.

Thanks everyone! (And wish me luck-- I'm really curious what this load will do to a whitetail.)

Pertinax

Have a smith take a chamber cast..and remember the plastic box warning, it will ring every case.