Today was the first chance I had to shoot some of my handloads in 470 NE. I read as much as I could from published sources, did search on AR, and the helpful hints you guys posted.... all of which was very helpful.

My Merkel was regulated for the Federal Factory loaded TB Sledgehammers and they shoot very well in my rifle. I chronographed the Fed. TBs at a nominal 2112 fps but the extreme spread was...extreme...

Some of post(s) I read here had suggested that the Federal loads may have a larger amount of velocity variation due to no filler and large amount of air space. If I remember correctly this was from an old post by George Hoffman and others here.

If I remember correctly, Mr. Hoffman went on to say that, in his experience, H4831 or 4530 gave better results. That post along with published information lead me to choose H4831 to start development with Barnes 500 grain Banded Solids (waiting for North Forks 470's to try).

I loaded up some rounds and working up to 2112 fps (the federal factory TB I chronographed). Actually my last load tested chronographed 2112 fps..hows that for luck... but instead of the 100 fps ES with the Federal, the extreme spread of my handloads was 20 fps...and they shot better than the factory loads in my rifle!!!!...to the point of aim and the grouping was fantasic at 50 yards.

The downside which was noted on the AR postings was recoil with powders slower than RL15. I was shooting from a sitting bench but unsupported. In my other rifles I do not notice much difference in felt recoil... in the same riles with different powders but I did here!! The H4831sc was a good deal heavier in felt recoil over the Federal Factory loads...but given the difference in performance I will be glad to take the extra recoil. Although I may give H4350 a try to see what happens there.

I have more testing to verify results but it seems that the Barnes Banded Solids and H4831sc worked very well. Now if Mike at North Fork will get those Cup Points and FN made I will have more to options.

I was a confirmed bolt action guy... before I read all you guys posts on DR and shot one for the first time. You guys were right...Doubles are more fun!!!

Glad to see things worked out for you. I HAD planned on taking 3 different loads out today...but the flu bug that's going around hammered me hard this week. As I think you know from previous posts I, too, shoot a 470 Merkel. I'm only working up loads using RL 15, and filler though, due to the recoil issue. I may also consider the 4350 if for some reason the 15 doesn't perform...but I doubt it. I've got loads cooked up with both the solid and soft Woodleighs and the Barnes banded. As quick as I can get to the range, I'll post the results.

Gary B.

jjs
Try some RL-15 with filler in your 470.
Start with 87 grains [500 grain bullets].

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
jjs
Try some RL-15 with filler in your 470.
Start with 87 grains [500 grain bullets].

jjs,
I'll second that. It will be uniform, with low ES comparable to the H4831 SC.

The final charge will depend on the specific case and the filler used.

87 grains might be right on with BeLL brass and 5 grains of dacron. You might need more powder with Norma brass and a packing foam wad. As always, there might be some lot to lot variability with RL-15, so just to be safe you might start with 85 grains. However, I did use as much as 92 grains of RL-15 with some of my loads, with good results.

That old Ross Seyfried inspired fear of foam wads has never been explained to my satisfaction. They worked fine for me.

I will be trying H4350 in my Merkel .470 NE, after I finish up some Bolt Action trash work in .450 Dakota.

Any of your load specifics would be interesting with either H4831 SC or H4350 from the Extreme line.

What brass did you use and what charge of H4831 SC did you max out at? F215 or GM215M?

RIP,

The H4831sc loads I tested consisted of the following:

1) Norma Brass trimmed to 3.240". Primer pockets uniformed and deburred. I use RCBS dies.
2) Barnes 500 grain Banded Solids.
3) Federal 215 Match Grade Primers.
4) As far as the top load tested (which gave me 2112 fps) that provided extremely good accuracy... was 110 grain H4831sc. Most data I have suggest (none with Barnes Banded Solids) that this may not be top load given volume of powder and 500 grain bullets but it is close enough to the top for me to stop where I am given the results. I worked up to this load and everybody else should also start at a lower powder charge and work up with any powder/load noted here...or elsewhere.

Tempture at the range was 55F, I would expect about 1/2 fps per degree F with the extreme powders based on my limited testing...So at 95F that would put the load at roughly 2132 fps or better. That would be slightly over the "historical" number and I think good enough for most situations...I assume you would agree?

I spoke with Barnes about the Banded Solids before I loaded them and if I remember the conversation correctly...Barnes test showed the Banded Solids at a little less pressure (same loadings) than the XLC Solids but not enough to make changes with the data. Barnes suggested that the accuracy with the Banded Solids was significantly better than XLC's. Also, Barnes has no published data on H4831 but does on H4350. My starting point for H4831 was based upon the limited published information and based upon that data should have been below max. allowable average pressure by a reasonable margin...but I have no pressure testing equipment to verify that, just a chronograph.

I thought the 20 fps extreme spread I got with H4831 was very good...do you consistently achieve better than that?? I have some loads and rifles that will but not many...

Regards,

Jim

jjs,
I Agree absolutely with the above.
An extreme spread of 20 fps is about the best I have done with RL-15 and filler.

For a 4-shot group, R-L-R-L, with the same charge of RL-15 (I was adventurous), these are the 4-shot average velocities and extreme spreads that I got at 78 degrees F, Norma case, packing foam wad, F215 primer (standard, not match), 3.240" case trim-to:

Woodleigh 500gr FMJ: 2115 fps, ES: 20 fps
GSC 500gr FN: 2095 fps, ES: 23 fps
GSC 500gr HV: 2164 fps, ES: 19 fps
Swift 500gr AF: 2120 fps, ES: 32 fps
Hornady 400gr JHP: 2203 fps, ES: 26 fps
Barnes 500gr XLC: 2141 fps, ES: 23 fps

Hard to beat RL-15 with filler, less recoil, good uniformity.

These were in my 23.6" barreled Merkel, like yours.

Note that the GSC HV and GSC FN both are banded and low friction, so this would tend to drop the pressure and velocity, versus the Woodleigh, but the HV is much longer than the FN so case capacity was reduced and upped the pressure and velocity with the HV. Similarly, the Barnes XLC is long and gets the velocity up when it is crimped on the cannelure and has all that base seated into the case.

The Hornady pistol bullet is faster in this case because it is lighter at only 400 grains, but offers enough friction to get some pressure behind it.

I was using 92 grains of RL-15.
This may be due to a slow lot of powder I have.

Less may work with other lots. Also, a 1-2 grain packing foam wad cut with a chamfer sharpened 50 BMG case was used.

Using 5 grains of dacron fluff and less RL-15 may be the best way to go, and that is what I will try next, along with some H4350 loads with no filler.

If you get any H4350 data, please share it here. Thanks.

Sounds like you have a handle on that .470 and I know you can shoot, so you have your load....

You may at some point want to try 85 to 87 grs of RL-15 and 5 grs. of dacron, and see how that works for recoil and accuracy...

I have shot a number of buffalo with the 85 gr. load of RL-15 at 2020 FPS in my gun and it stuns those black bulls to say the least, then they flop on their side with all four feet up....and recoil is really calm by comparison...

Thanks to all you guys, I appreciate all the information. I will plan on giving RL 15 and H4350 a try.

Gary, I look forward to your results, in particular, on the Barnes Banded and RL 15.

I am planning to work with RL15, H4350, and H4831sc with the following Bullets (when I get them!!)
1) North Fork CUP and FN
2) Barnes TSX and Banded Solids
3) Woodleighs Softs

I will use your information on RL15 to start and work up the others as best I can.. At least I have one Solid that works well.

Thanks again,

Jim