I am currently using a 458 as my big bore. The rifle weighs just under 9 lbs. It is a pleasure to shoot with 400 grain bullets at 2350 fps. However, the move to 500 grains loaded wide open is an entirely different rifle to shoot. Not brutal, but definitely STIFF.

I think the move to a 404 might be a very good compromise. Light weight rifle (relatively), manageable recoil, good penetration with 400 grain bullet.

My understanding of the 404 is that factory loadings run about 2100 fps with the 400 grainer. Can it be loaded to 2300-2400 fps without pressure signs in high temp locales?

Any input from the fellows shooting the Jeffery?

Roger

Yes, in fact Jeffery offered a factory load at 2300 fps with less pressure than the original cordite load as early as 1910. It is very easy to get 2500 fps with a 400 grain bullet and Ray Atkinson says 2600 if you really try, although why you would want that stiff a load is beyond me.

The 404 is a wonderful cartridge that has all of the best of the 416 Rigby with out the recoil or the heavy, clubby rifles.

Forgive me, Mickey, I ask this out of ignorance about rifles, not spite or sarcasm.

Shouldn't a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2600 fps feel about the same whether the headstamp says 404 Jeffrey, 416 Rigby, or 416 Weatherby?

Do you mean that a standard 404 Jeffrey loading that pushes a 400 grain bullet at around 2150 fps recoils less, and that a rifle built for a load like that is more pleasant to carry?

H. C.

Roger,

"There are no magic calibers nor cartridges." John Schaefer

The .404 Jeffery is a classic English and European (10.75X73) cartridge, while it is a wildcat in the USA. I say that because some gunsmiths here do not follow the CIP standards for the cartridge when they build rifles. There aren't any SAAMI standards.

If you buy a rifle built to the CIP standard, you will be able to shoot European factory ammunition. If you have a rifle built here, you are on your own. I suggest choosing the ammunition first, and then getting a rifle which will shoot it. You can read GAHunter's saga here on AR with his .404 Jeff for background.

If you drive bullets from a .404 Jeff over its design levels, you do so by raising the pressure and increasing the recoil. The .404 Jeff and the .450/.400 at 2,150 fps are "enough gun".

jim

I had a .458lott (9 1/4#) & soon figured out that a 500gr bullet @ 2200fps was more fun than I needed. I sold it & am now having a .404 made on a M70. The same thought occured to me, that a 400gr bullet @ 2200-2300 was just easier to shoot well from a 9-9 1/2# rifle.
When it's finished I will certainly post the results & maybe a pic. here.

[ 07-10-2003, 23:13: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I've been shooting the 404 longer than most folks have been on this earth

If you are going to build one then build a 9 lb. rifle with a .423 bore, forget the European ammo...Use a Clymer reamer and Norma, bell specs.....A lothar-walther barrel and an opened up in the rear std. Mauser action with a drop box by Ted Blackburn thats designed for the 404 case...

Load it to 2400 FPS with 93 grs. of IMR-4831 and pressures will be very low or load it to 2653 FPS (27" barrel) with 95 grs. of IMR-4831 and you will be a safe max in most guns...All these loads were recently pressure tested by North Fork Bullets Inc. and faired very well indeed....

Some folks don't realise the 404 case is a very large case and will carry the mail, its powder is just slightly short of the 416 Rigby and at the same pressures will come within about 100 FPS of the Rigby which is meaningless because both are normally loaded to 2400 FPS and pressures are very mild in both cartridges....

The great 404 Jefferys is a truly misunderstood round and a victim of much false or misinformed information in many cases....

It can do anything the 416 Rigby can do for the most part and do it all in a smaller package and inasmuch as I have to pack that package I'll take the 404 Jefferys....

Not a flame of the 416 Rigby, it is a grand cartridge in its own right, but there is not a nickles worth of difference in the 404, 416 Rigby or the 416 Remington and might as well add the new 400 H&H to that group of proven calibers.

FWIW...My chamber was cut with a PTG reamer made by Dave Kiff. I spoke with him before doing this to sort out what I was getting with one of his reamers. He told me that he makes his reamers to CIP 90 06 standard. I also spoke with the gal at dave Manson reamers and she faxed me a copy of their .404 Jeffery reamer and gauge drawings and their reamer was basically identical to the PTG reamer. Solid pilot diameters are at .4098" & .410", so one is advised to get a floating pilot reamer for anything else. The other thing to take into consideration is the bullets that are available, as this will obviously have an influence on the barrel that you select. These reamers are setup to deal with different groove diameters up to .424" as there is no freebore section on this reamer. I hope this makes sense - short of posting a reamer dwg here.

Ray - I started this reply before you added yours and when I submitted it you had replied! Anyway, the above is in no way meant as a retort to your last reply! ...just what I have learned in along my .404 journey with help from you and many others here!

"I've been shooting the 404 longer than most folks have been on this earth" ...I'll be 44 next week so is that true wrt to me?

Regards,
Jeff P

[ 07-11-2003, 01:40: Message edited by: Pfeifer ]

Thanks for everybodys contribution.

Ray..that is exactly the rifle I plan on building. I will use a Husky action, Half Moon barrel, Blackburn dropbox bottom metal(possibly Wisner's if he is up and running with his).

I haven't decided on the sights as of yet. I may go with the Lyman 35. I will probably go with a bolt peep with a scope in Talley rings.

I would prefer a fixed power scope. What magnification is best?

Scrollcutter

One other suggestion. You may want to lengthen the ejection port to the rear and installing a Wiesner magnum length extractor. This will give enough room to fully eject cases without striking the corner of action and throwing cases back in front of bolt. This is one modification that I do for reliability.

James

Pulled this off the Champlin Arms site - Note the weight:

MAUSER COMMERCIAL 404 JEFF | Magnum Mauser Action-Claw Mts. | 404 Jeffery | | #94585 Commercial Mauser Cal. 404 Jeffery with Original Magnum Mauser action, 24� barrel with band front ramp, Barrel band sling eye, Express sights with 1 standing & 4 folding, Claw mount scope bases, Hinged floorplate with center bow release. Double set triggers, Horn forend tip, Cheekpiece, Point pattern checkering, 14 3/4" L.O.P. over a Silvers pad, 8 lbs. 3 oz., The stock has been very nicely refinished and the metal reblued, The bore is excellent with square rifling from throat to muzzle and all serial numbers match on the entire rifle. Neat cartridge built around a neat magnum action from a world renowned maker from a great era. | $ 4950.00

Jeff, check this one out. 8 lbs. 5 oz. Original Jeffery.

I like the looks of the rifle at Champlin much better than this rifle.

Roger

Westley Richards

[ 07-11-2003, 09:55: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ]

Here's a photo comparison.

The Westley Richards Photo is very dark. I wonder if it is intentional.

Roger


A .404 Bolt Action Rifle by Jeffery

Bolt mounted aperture. .404 Jef Mauser Barrel:25" Rib:Island Trigger:One Safe:Flag Ejector:Yes Sights:0 + 5 Telescope:No Stock:Pistol Grip Pull:14 3/8" Weight:8 lbs 5 oz Case:No

Looks like a Rigby bolt peep and a standard length action. Rog


Champlin's rifle. The Magnum Mauser action.

[ 07-11-2003, 10:16: Message edited by: Scrollcutter ]

I'm not as up on big bores as most of the guys on this board but what about the .425 Express? I remember reading about that when Savage used to chamber for it. That pushes a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 and you could do it in a standard size rifle. Just curious.

For my taste the 425 has too many feeding problems. A good DGR gunmaker could manage it, but why bother. Just my opinion though.
Roger

Roger

I think Savage 49494 is talking about the 425 Express not 425 WR. The 425 Express is based on a belted Magnum case and uses .423 dia bullets.
The 425 Express is an excellent cartridge for a short magnum action.

James

Thanks James. I did think he was reffering to the W.R. cartridge.

I doesn't change much for me though. I am looking for a large case capacity to keep the pressures down. I already have a short magnum big bore.
Roger

So the 404 would work good on a standard length mauser like an Argentine or VZ24? Did anybody see the peep site mounted on the back of the cocking piece that was in one of the other threads? Looked really cool.

Red

Dago-Is this the one?



Sorry guys. I know this is about the third time I've posted this photo. But, I'm just so darned tickled with this sight.
Roger

Scrollcutter
I got an emergency need
Made by who, were, and how much?

Don't be shy

/ JOHAN

That's the one! I love that too. I think I will need to get one of those put onto a future project. just too cool.

Red

Srollcutter,
That is the same 404 Jeffery that I posted a while back...nice, nice, nice! I'm going to push to keep mine under 9 lb. I have a copy of the original Mauser catalogs and they list the .404 Eley Rimless (I think?) in there and I believe it was 8lb 6oz.

Here's the same image that I've readjusted (a little software magic) the brightness, contrast and gamma on to make it easier to see details:



Hope that is a bit better for all to see

jp

Jeff...Nice job on the photo touch-up.

Look at the drop in that stock. I'll wager that the rifle kicks like a Kentucky mule.

Scrollcutter,
You have been brainwashed by the O'Connor crowd, those nice low comb Jefferys and Holland rifles suck up recoil like a sponge...they divide the recoil between barrel rise and come back, the American classic brings it all stright back..Try one before you refute my statment..I shoot both. In fact Jack Belk was marveling over this and the fact that the wood stock weighed less than any fiberglass stock. The Brits and Germans knew a thing or two from building hunting guns centuries before we started re writing the book on custom guns...It's starting to make a comeback as folks realize they been had by the printed word and BS.....thats an argueable statement by a lot of folks I realize, but I believe it to be true.

Roger,
I would try to find a used 3X Leupold for a fixed scope on a DGR, or one of the 7/8" tube Leupold Alaskans 2.5X made by Leupold for a couple of years in the early 90's as I recall...I have both and love them...If you can't locate one I might part with one of my 3X's for such a project as yours.

If I were building a 404 I would definatly use a std. length action and have it opened in the rear only by a smith that knows his stuff, no guess work here..remember the 404 case is shorter than the 375 or 416..I would pass a law that all Mauser mag. MOd.20 actions would be required of 500 cal or better

The .425 WR was a disaster in design and is so tricky to make function that I would not want to risk my hide on it....

The 10.75 x 68 is now a neat option with brass available and good components it will duplicate the old 2150 FPS of the original 404 and get you 2375 FPS with a 350 gr. Monolithic H.P.....

I have had such wonderful luck with Lothar Walthers 404 .423 barrels turned to the contour of Holland and Holland OR the Mauser Mod A with the stright section to slip a barrel band rear sight from NECG that I can't fathom using another barrel and they all shot 1/2 inch at 100.
He now sells both barrel contour as stock item since I sent him my pattern....thats a plus in time saving and the added touch.

I
really
dislike
it
when
people
post
such
big
pictures
.

Mickey - My apologies for the large pict! I've been trying to be a bit more conscientious about that as not everyone has fast downloads and large monitors. I would shrink it but that editing software resides on another cornputer that I'm away from.

Just couldn't see much on that little picture. Hoffman fitted his with a little less drop maybe more of a compromise? My friend's Sedgeley sporter has a stock with a bit of drop and shooting it gives him some severe headaches due to the way that the comb comes back under recoil. Is this just not fitted correctly to his stature? Maybe Ray can comment on this for us?

Jeff P

[ 07-12-2003, 09:30: Message edited by: Pfeifer ]

Pfiefer

Don't sweat it, I enjoy nice rifles. It's just that yours are so much bigger than mine. I wonder if they weigh more?

Pfeifer,
Depends on your friends build but I suspect the problem with the Sedgley is no cast off...

Now the Hoffmans bite my cheek so about 1/8" of wood off the comb fixes that...the drop only makes the gun rise, but if the comb is wrong then the rise of the gun brings the comb into some folks face.

As to headaches, shooting causes that with some people, usually caused by head snap..Certainly a gun can have too much drop or too little..too much can cause head snap...you have to find the sweet spot for your individual build...Mine is the Holland and Holland stock that I have a pattern of.

My Cogswell & Harrison .404 has served me very well for over thirty years. Now that we live in Nevada, it sees more cast bullets for fun shooting than anything else. However, we were privileged to hunt completely-wild (i.e.: unfenced, unrestricted) Woods Bison in the Northwest Territories for quite a few years, and the .404 was outstanding.

Starting with Kynoch 400-grain factory softpoints at 2125 fps and progressing to handloaded Barnes originals at 2400 fps, and at ranges to 200 yards, all the loads were very effective and fast killers.

Recently, I've successfully made fine and fully-functional .404 brass from Remington UltraMags. Note that the .338 UM is a bit shorter than the .375s, which are full .404 length. The .338 UM brass will do, but .375UMs are better for this reason.

Simply size the UM brass gradually in the .404 sizer (without the decapping assembly) until the case will barely allow the bolt to cam shut. Then, put about 20 grains of 2400 or 5744 in the primed case, fill the case with cornmeal to the mouth, and top it off with a bit of loose tissue in the mouth. Fire these loads straight up in the air and you have new .404 cases for a quarter of the normal price.

The base diameter of the UM brass may be a tad smaller than some .404 cases, but it doesn't matter in my rifle, and the standard H&H shellholder fits.

Note that some African countries require that the headstamp match the rifle, so don't take UM-brass .404 loads to such places.

I really like this cartridge. BTW, Lee's 310-grain .44 bullet will size down to .424 and still be useable for CHEAP .404 bullets. I think a new personal .404 design from Mountain Molds is in my future, though.

Regards from Bren Mk1.