What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa. If I go I will be using my 375 but would like to take a second gun and the 405 win in lever action sounds like a good idea.

I have never shot them but I have seen them and what they can do....but:
Since there are a WHOLE bunch of people who shoot buff with a handgun...
Since you will not be a lone and have a PH backing you up.....
If you can get a properly contructed bullet I see no reason that it will not work. I posted a Thread on some .405 bullets from Shell reloading. The 400 grain bullets he makes for the .405 probably won't work in a M95 but I believe he said that he can also makes 350 grain bullets. Also look at Hawk, Barnes and North Fork....

I am not sure if I would want to take a chance on the Hornady factory 300s...the recovered bullets I have seen look a little "soft".

Bob

It's all about bullets. The 300 gr. Hornadys aren't what you want, but there's probably something out there that will work. Its case capacity is about the same as the .45-70, SD for a given weight a bit better.

Bully For The .405
Roosevelt's "big medicine" enjoys a revival.
By Craig Boddington
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/bully_041805/index.html


Shot with a Ruger No. 1 .405 Winchester, the author's water buffalo was by far the best he's taken after several trips to Australia.


Brittany Boddington's water buffalo had very good horns and weighed close to 2,500 pounds. A single 300-grain Hornady bullet at very close range did the job nicely, making her professional hunter, Peter Harding, very happy.


From the article:

"So the .405 is what it is: a powerful lever-action cartridge but, in the grand scheme of cartridges for dangerous game, a fairly moderate round."

"I like the .405 fine just the way it is, and my daughter loves it. But let's keep this in perspective. Killing a very large animal is one thing. Stopping him is another. On wild boars and lions and tigers and bears, the .405 is definitely a stopper. It's not a stopping rifle on thick-skinned dangerous game, certainly not as currently loaded. As Brittany and I certainly learned--and as Teddy Roosevelt learned 95 years ago--it can be used to hunt very large game. But in that role, use it with great care."

-Bob F.

I dearly love the 405 Win and appreciate it's ability to decisively put down game, but if you have better options for an animal that is notorious for tough to put down, I would consider just a little more umph.

I shot two animals last year (bear & deer) with the 405 and it was DRT. Zero yards after impact.

Personally, I wouldn't hunt cape buffalo with the 405. But, that is because I have other options.

My loads are 300 grain Barnes X, over 54.5 grains of IMR4895 @ 2198 fps. Accurate and devastating. Although, in my simple opinion, I would use more gun for buff.

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa.

Teddy R. did not have such great luck with it in Africa. So he relied on his H&H .465 for the big stuff.

I will have a 375 H&H but it is a single shot. Great gun but I wanted to bring one other rifle for Africa. Always carry a back up. I would go bigger but I dont know how well I can shoot the heavier calibers and I would use the 405 for other than just Africa.
Buffalo would be the biggest game I am going for if I go next year.

Basically you can't push a 410 gr.405 win out of a win 1895 at more than 1950fps no matter what you do. There simply isn't enough powder capacity. You run out of room due the the mag design of the 1895. If you long throat an encore or Ruger #1 you can hit the 2100fps limit. I'm a firm believer that a 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps is the minimum I'd rely on for cape bullalo as this basically matches the 450/400 jeffery. There was a lot of discussion a few weeks ago here on Big Bores of converting a M1895 to a .411 Hawk which is based on the 30-06 case and which should just hit the magic numbers at pressures the M1895 can withstand. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa.

Teddy R. did not have such great luck with it in Africa. So he relied on his H&H .465 for the big stuff.

I thought Roosevelt really liked the 405 for Lion and smaller game.

my son and i killed a buff each in Zim in 2004 with a #1 in .405 with a handload consisting of 300 gr hard cast bullets. the bullets would be reduced to 50% or less after hitting heavy bone, but they did penetrate the shoulder bones and puncture the lungs. with some real solids i'm sure the cartridge would have performed better, but that's all i could get at the time. all that said i think the 405 is pushing the minimum for buff.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa.

Teddy R. did not have such great luck with it in Africa. So he relied on his H&H .465 for the big stuff.

I thought Roosevelt really liked the 405 for Lion and smaller game.

I have no experience with the 405.

I did read TR's book and he called it "Lion Medicine" and did not have alot of luck with it on bigger stuff.

He complained about the bullet performance several times in his book.

If you haven't read it, it is a great book and a must read for those interested in hunting "The Dark Continent".

I backed out on buying a Winchester 405 in 1895 due to the fact that I already have three 416 rem mag rifles.I didnt want .411 and .416 bullets to get mixed up.I would go for a .406 necked to .416 with an improved case.I added up all the positives and negatives of geting a 405 win in the 1895.I wanted one bad but it just didnt make much scence have a 405 win to have to get different bullets for it.If it had not been for that I might have gotten one.Its a short range gun that is too small for large stuff and too large for most people as a deer gun.I had a 1895 in 30-06 and sold it without firing it.The 1895 winchester is hard to scope and I cant shoot far with iron sites.The coolest 405 Winchester was a double rifle.It weighed about 7 pounds and was a very nice rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa.

Teddy R. did not have such great luck with it in Africa. So he relied on his H&H .465 for the big stuff.

I thought Roosevelt really liked the 405 for Lion and smaller game.

What he said for public consumption differed from his actual experience. If you carefully read his book about the trip, there were a lot of animals that got away wounded with the .405. However, it probably did work for lion and smaller animals.

Teddy also admitted his shooting was not up to par because of his poor eyesight. You also look at some of the ranges he was "lobbing" lead at some of the animals and you can understand why a lot were not found...he could have been shooting a .416 Weatherby and had the same effects.

Over on the Gary Reeder Custom Guns site there are pictures of 3 Cape Buffalo taken with a .410 GNR which is a .454 Casull necked down to .41. With a 255 gr. CPBC hardcast he shot 3 Cape buffalo and one Bison and two were one shot drops. Velocity was 1900 fps. Are there better rounds than the .405...yes, but this one with proper bullets will do the job with proper bullet placement.

Bob

I've never been able to understand this urge to shoot REAL dangerous game with deer rifles! TR found out quickly that his Springfield 30-06 was a better killer on anything than the 405. One of the real injustices dealt on the shooting public was Winchester's depiction of TR standing over a downed Cape Buffalo, with a 1895 Winchester, on their ammo box for the re-released 405 Win ammo. IMO, this gave the empression that the 405 is a Cape Buffalo rifle, which it definently is not!

TR found it was marginal even on Lion,as well, and wounded a lot of game with it, of all sizes. NOT just at long range, as one poster posted, but right up close from horse back. He quickly traded that 405 for a pair of H&H 500/450NE double rifles for himself, and Kermit, to shoot Buffalo, Rhino, and Elephant.

I would dearly love to have a nice S/S double rifle chambered for 405 Win, but I'd certainly not use it on Cape Buffalo, as long as I had a choice.

Will the 405 kill Cape Buffalo, certainly it will, but then so will a .22 LR, if everything is perfect. The fact that the 405 will "KILL" a cape Buffalo, doesn't make it a Cape Buffalo chambering, any more than the 22LR. I'd far rather have the 405 than the .22lr in any case, however!


The thinking that the PH will always be there to drag your nuts out of the fire, is a pipe dream! What happens if the PH is the first one hit by a Buffalo, or by a lion? He is in deep trouble if you are armed with an inadiquate firearm! If hunting Cape Buffalo, carry a Cape Buffalo rifle, or leave him alone, is my advice!

As far as I know, there is no law that says you can't hunt Cape Buffalo with your 1895 405 Win, but IMO,and you did ask for opinions, it isn't a wise choice!

PS: The chambering of TR's double was edited to reflect the proper chambering. After looking it up, it was as 465H&H says a 500/450NE double rifle by H&H!

you have just GOT!! to admire a redhead who hunts in a tubetop.

Rich

Mac,
You are the only person I know who can make the words "deer rifle" into an insult. Although JJHack comes pretty close.

I think the .405 is a little bit more capable as a cape buffalo rifle than a .22 rimfire.

As I recall, Teddy's big problem was that he couldn't shoot with anything. And then I seem to remember Hemingway shooting rhino with an 06. So what does any of this prove? Celebrities are not the first place to look for advice in choosing a rifle. Then again, neither is AR...

Funny, though - may the curse of the deer rifles be upon you always....



Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Mac,
You are the only person I know who can make the words "deer rifle" into an insult. Although JJHack comes pretty close.

Brent, I'd say when discussing Cape Buffalo, the words "DEER RIFLE" do not belong in the same paragraph! What-ch-thank?

quote:

I think the .405 is a little bit more capable as a cape buffalo rifle than a .22 rimfire.

I'd say so! In fact I did say so!

quote:

As I recall, Teddy's big problem was that he couldn't shoot with anything. And then I seem to remember Hemingway shooting rhino with an 06. so? Celebrities are not the first place to look for advice in choosing a rifle. Then again, neither is AR...

My point exactly! I didn't inject TR into this, that was the justification someone above used to make the 405 Win into something it isn't. Because one idiot does something and gets by with it, doesn't make it a good idea.

I would say you will come far closer to getting the real deal on AR than with most celebs!

NOW! My question to you is, Where would you go that you will find more real world experience on African hunting than AR for advice? There is most likely ove 100 years of combined first hand experience on hunting in Africa, on this web-site alone.

quote:

Funny, though - may the curse of the deer rifles be upon you always....



Brent

Brent, I have nothing against deer rifles, or deer hunting, I've done pleanty of it, and own many deer rifles. What I do have a problem with, however, is folks reccomending the use of deer rifles to hunt Cape Buffalo! The problem with TR was, he was a rich boy, deer hunter, shooting amoung the largest, and most dangerous game in the world, and he started off with what he assumed to be a proper rifle for animals he had never hunted. He found out different.
Only after he finally started useing the H&H doubles, given to him by the Britt disgnataries, did he start killing what he had there-to-fore been wounding.

It makes little difference anyway, because there will always be those who just SOMEHOW KNOW, things will work, because one or two guys before them got away with it. Not from doing it themselves. Yet the advice from those who have been there are not to be taken seriously.

I believe that Swiftshot, in the quote of the first 14 words of his post, asked the question:

quote:

What are your thoughts on the 405 Winchester for buff. size game in Africa.

The above, and my first post are my thoughts on the subject. It is what the poster asked for, and not mandatory that the poster, or anyone else follow my advice, and further it is not mandatory that anyone agree with my opinion.

Please don't take this post wrong, it is not meant as a contest! It is simply re-stateing my opinion, and the reasons for it! I meant no harm in my first post, only a CAUTIONARY plee for those who hunt DG to use the proper rifle for the job!

As I said the opinion is only worth what he, or you, for that matter, paid for it!
BYE!

Educate me here. I thought Teddys double was the 500/450 H&H that was given to him by Selous and others.

465H&H

I have 2 405's,one Ruger No.1 and one built for me by Krieger back when he first started converting the 1895's. Wanted to take to Africa but never have. The only Buffalo I have killed was with a 375 with 300gr Woodleigh solid. One shot. If a 300gr 375 is adequate I can't see why a 300/350gr 405 wouldn't be equally effective on Buffalo. I would have no qualms on using it for everything up to Buffalo. You aren't talking any range and with the 95 you have backup shots. The No.1 works even better with 400gr Woodleigh's but is of course a single shot.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Educate me here. I thought Teddys double was the 500/450 H&H that was given to him by Selous and others.

465H&H

465H&H, you are right, I think. I Thought it was a 500/450 NE as well, but 500grains said it was a 465H&H, so I guess I'll need to look it up to be sure!

It was a 500/450NE 3 1/4" Holland & Holland side lock! I replayed the film IN THE BLOOD where the young hunter was useing it to take a Cape Buffalo, and the rifle was given to TR by several British buisness men! In his words some English friends. The rifle is now owned by Greg Martin, and California collector.

375H&H vs 405 Winchester. The 375 wins hands down on sectional density AND velocity.

Looking at 300 grain bullets the 405 turns up 2200 according to hornaday. The std factory 375H&H loads turn up 2550 and you can get faster loads too. 350fps is nothing to sneeze at AND the 300 gr 375 bullet has a much higher sectional density at .305 vs .254 for the 405.

Talking bullets of similar sectional density .305 again for the 375 and an impressive .338 for the 400 gr .411" bullets and your looking at a 600 fps difference.

The cartridges are not even in similar classes and the 375H&H is the time proven minimum safe cartridge.

Can a 405 kill a buff, yes if all goes according to the script. Better tell the buff the script though, and they're fanous for not following any script.

JPK

The reason I asked about the 405 is I would like a lever action. I dont need a big lever action I could get a nice bolt no problem but man a big bore lever action to me is as sexy as a double. I found the 405 is the biggest you can get in a lever standard.
I have heard that I can convert the BLR 338 win mag over to 416 Taylor. I have to confirm that one. Boy would that be the coolest thing since beer was bottled. The other option would be a 400 Whelen or 411 Hawk. I dont think the later would be reaching the foot pds I want.

Still looking worst case is I build myself a 416 Rigby or Remington off one of the Montana PH actions.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Educate me here. I thought Teddys double was the 500/450 H&H that was given to him by Selous and others.

465H&H

465H&H, you are right, I think. I Thought it was a 500/450 NE as well, but 500grains said it was a 465H&H, so I guess I'll need to look it up to be sure!

It was a 500/450NE 3 1/4" Holland & Holland side lock! I replayed the film IN THE BLOOD where the young hunter was useing it to take a Cape Buffalo, and the rifle was given to TR by several British buisness men! In his words some English friends. The rifle is now owned by Greg Martin, and California collector.

Yep, it's a 500/450 NE. R. L. Wilson's book, Theodore Roosevelt, Outdoorsman covers it well. (Lots of info on TR's guns in that book.)
http://www.wilsonbooks.com/TROutdr.html

Here's the rifle:



Note the Presidential Seal on the buttstock.

-Bob F.

I handled this rifle quite a bit at the shot show in Dallas some years ago, right before it was to go on auction. They sold 50 tickets for $20 each with the winner going to a local range and shooting 10 rounds through the rifle! Needless to say I dropped a $100 bill very quickly on that one, but somebody from San Antonio won the raffle, DAMN-IT! Story of my life!

Greg Martin, a California collector, was the successful bidder at the auction, for the rifle, and paid close to $500K for It. He was the guy in the film IN THE BLOOD who wanted to shoot the big Croc!

TR's 500/450 is on display at the NRA's National Firearms Museum at their headquarters in Fairfax, Va. I had the opportunity to handle that rifle and others on display at a reception some years ago. Had to wear issued white gloves!

JPK

The .405 Win. would be way down on my list of suitable buffalo calibers.

It'll work, I'm sure, but there are so many better choices, so why handicap yourself?

I have never understood or appreciated the "stunt value" of using lesser calibers for dangerous game. Nobody asked, but as far as I'm concerned the same goes for muzzle loaders, bows and arrows and pointy sticks!

Could it be that what constitutes a stunt for you, constitutes real hunting for someone else?

Amazing to me how much folks want to deride another person's choices.

Brent

Brent,

Stunt or not its just dumb when there are so many better and proven choices.

Any hunt that is described as, "Look what I shot with my ______", is a stunt hunt. Fill in the blank as you please. When the weapon is the focus its a stunt hunt. When the hunt is the focus it isn't.

JPK

Bottom line is a 410 gr bullet in .411 caliber at 2150 duplicates the grand old 450-400 jeffery. That cartridge has a solid reputation on African DG all the way up to ELE ( although I'd personally feel undergunned here). If a .411 Hawk on a M1895 win can duplicate that recipe within the pressure limitations of the action, then I would use it unhesitatingly for Buff. The .405 win just can't quite get there in the M1895 action. It can however, with a Ruger #1 or Encore SS when you throat it out .250 and hit 65Kpsi with fast powders. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Any hunt that is described as, "Look what I shot with my ______", is a stunt hunt. Fill in the blank as you please. When the weapon is the focus its a stunt hunt. When the hunt is the focus it isn't.

JPK

JPK,
Almost everything posted on AR would qualify as a stunt hunt by your definition.

I'm pretty sure that a grenade launcher, bazzooka and a couple dozen other types of weapons would be better than a .458 Lott so obviously, no one here does anything but stunt hunt.

Brent

405 Medicine:

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
I'm pretty sure that a grenade launcher, bazzooka and a couple dozen other types of weapons would be better than a .458 Lott so obviously, no one here does anything but stunt hunt.

You are arguing by employing the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.

You suggest that using obviously underpowered weapons against dangerous animals is justified, because any legal, ethical and "non-stunt" weapon is underpowered when compared with weapons of war and other destructive devices.

JPK's definition of "stunt hunt" is a good one, IMO. And I would add that "stunt hunts" always seem to involve dangerous animals. Otherwise, nobody would care to hear the stunt hunter boast about his "miraculous" exploits with an underpowered weapon.

Unfortunately, what is not mentioned is generally more telling. That is that stunt hunters all too often merely wound their animals, or cause them needless and prolonged suffering. And their PHs are all too often left to sort things out, which they ALWAYS do with appropriate weapons for the task, which are ALWAYS dangerous game rifles of proven calibers and power.

Another good definition to bear in mind for these purposes is the definition of "stunt weapon." A "stunt weapon" is one that NO professional hunter on earth uses, or would ever dream of using, in his line of work. That pretty much covers it, IMHO.

BTW, I agree that a souped up .405, using 400 grain bullets and getting somewhere around 2,150 fps, would merit being called a DGR. But that is a horse of a different color from the .405 factory loading, and would not function in a M1895 Winchester in any case.

mrlexma,

You put it pretty well and I really like your definition of a stunt rifle!

The 450/400-original404j matching load in a throated 405 in a Ruger # 1 would be an adequate rifle. If someone is looking for the nastalgia, try it in an original Farquarson in 450/400, a very popular chambering. The throated 405/Ruger #1 would be a less expensive facimile.

JPK

I think the apeal of a high powered lever gun is that they hold at least four cartridges and are faster on the second shot in the hands of the average shooter than a bolt action.Thus for DG game work if you had one of suitable power, it would be quite a formidable tool. Unfortunately, the .405 win or 45-70 just doesn't meet the time honored recipe of a 400 gr bullet ( of suitable sectional density) at 2150fps at pressures a lever gun can handle. It maybe that the .411 Hawk can get there and I'm very tempted to build one and see. Bottom line is if I can get 2150 fps with one( with a 410gr woodleigh) I'd hunt anything on earth with confidence and if it won't,I would not use it on DG.-Rob

Don't mind Brent, he's a schoolteacher from Iowa. He even shoots paperpatched bullets in his Sharps rifls. Gotcha, Brent!!!!!!!!!!!!

Put me in for a 416 Rigby as an appropriate minimum load for cape buffalo hunting. My trip is shaping up for next year, paid the house off a week ago and mamma is one happy camper. I expect to take the Whitworth 458 Lott and either my 500Mbogo or 550 Magnum, whichever is done and loadtested first.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Don't mind Brent, he's a schoolteacher from Iowa. He even shoots paperpatched bullets in his Sharps rifls. Gotcha, Brent!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rich

Oh oh oh, ya got me... Like I'm hurtin' now....

Yeah, I guess each has his own. I'll make mine a traditional hunting rifle, not a damn new age pacifier with copper coated supositories.

Brent