I just picked up a Cogswell and Harrison underlever hammer double in this chambering. It is well used but locks up tight as a drum. Some light roughness in the bores here and there but strong rifling. Anyone have any suggestions about loads or about the caliber itself? Also, can anyone help me identify the British proof marks on it? Thanks.

Terry

Terry,

Can you post a photo of the proofs, or describe them? There are several people on the forum who can help with this. This caliber was produced originally as a black powder cartridge, then as a nitro-for-black loading, and finally as a full nitro load, so until the proofs are identified it would be unwise to make suggestions about loads.

Jim

You are in luck: Ross Seyfried has an article in Rifle Magazine, September 2003 issue, about a Daniel Fraser 450/400 2-3/8".

Some of his loads: 80 grains KIK black powder, flat nose hard cast bullets from a LBT mold, 255 grain. 1700 ft./sec. He also shot some 280 grain roundnose, different powder and charge. The 255 grain load made a one shot kill for him on an elk.

Ross experimented with both paper patch and regular lubed bullets, you should read the article.

Your rifle is likely proofed for black powder, don't toss any smokeless powder in the cartridges.

[ 08-06-2003, 03:13: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

I don't think you have to worry much about the proofing, asn no Nitro rifles were made in this chambering, as far as I know. Even the cordite loads were made to Black powder pressures. You can find it's history on page 305 of the 6th edition of Cartridges Of the World.

According to J.Donnelley on page 626 of his Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions, he says the cases may be made fron 450NE brass, by turning the rim down to .615", cut the case to 2.4",and anneal. Form case in full length die, with expander removed. Trim to length and fire form, in chamber.

Donnelly shows a load of 35.2 grs of IMR3031 with a 270 gr lead bullet. I think I'd try this load experiementing with different amounts of Dacron fiberfill. The origenal load was 80 grs of black powder, with 230 to 250 gr lead bullets, or a 32.0 grs of cordite with a 270 gr bullet, yealding 1650 fps, and 1640 ME. with this factory load.

Hope any of this helps out!

Thanks, Mbogo, John and Mac...I appreciate the replies. I'd like to read a copy of that Rifle article if I can get hold of it...sounds like what I need to know. The proof marks on the underneath sides of the barrels are: on the left barrel a crown over P, the number L6204 and then stamped on the barrel itself is the number 25. Underneath the right barrel is a crown over P, a crown over V and what looks like maybe a crown over a J (not sure about that one). Inside the action is a crown over V on both right and left sides. Hope this helps in the indentification a bit. Any more history or advice is surely appreciated. Terry

Mac,

There seems to be a bit of confusion about this cartridge, as there is about many of the old black powder cartridges that transitioned to smokeless. Imperial Chemical Industries listed two black powder loadings of this cartridge, one with a 255 grain lead bullet and 80 grains of black powder at 1750 fps, and one with a 230 grain copper tubed lead bullet with 80 grains of black for 1750 fps and 10 tonnes per square inch pressure. Their nitro-for-black load had a 270 grain metal-based copper-tubed bullet with 32 grains of cordite at 1650 fps.

Volume 9 of COTW lists additional nitro express loads as a 300 grain RNHP bullet with 40 grains of cordite, as well as a 400 grain RNHP with 42.0-43.0 grains of cordite. However, COTW has been known to have a mistake or two , so I can't guarantee that the nitro express loads are correct.

Jim

[ 08-06-2003, 06:28: Message edited by: mbogo375 ]

Terry,

You posted while I was typing my last post. It sounds like the proof marks are London proofs for black powder. Is there any marking on the rifle refering to the caliber? It may not be on the barrel flats (check the bottom of the action, the butt plate, and the top of the barrels, etc.).

Jim

Jim, I've looked this thing over from top to bottom and inside and out and see no caliber markings...kinda surprised me. There could have been some light lettering on the barrel lug that shows through the bottom of the action but, if so, it's long gone now.

Mbogo375, I agree with you on the mistakes in COTW, and if one dug through the old ammo catalogs he might find more "Nitro for Black" loads, but I suspect they will all be on the same par with the black powder loads, and I don't think you will find a rifle that is Nitro proofed. The cartridge came out in the late 1890s and was quickly topped by the 500/450#1 Express which in turn was topped by the 500/450NE shortly. Neither of the former cartridges lasted too long, as neither was really suited for anything bigger, or tougher than moose! That little double TI1885B found will be a nice whitetail rifle for the thick stuff, and really fun to own,and shoot!

[ 08-07-2003, 00:55: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Thanks for the info, Mac. From looking at the Cogswell & Harrison website, it looks like my rifle may have been made between 1893 and 1926. According to their online history, the address on my barrels matches their address during that time period. Supposedly, they will give you the history of any rifle of theirs but I'm not getting any response to my emails.

Terry, Mac & Jim:

Hmmmm. Yeah, the British rifle chapter in COTW has long been a joke. Revisions in recent editions have corrected some of the old mistakes, but introduced a bunch of new ones. However, it is right this time. The .450/.400 2 3/8" was offered in BPE, Nitro for Black, and Nitro Express loadings.

The BPE used 75 to 84 grains of black depending on bullet weight and bullets of 210 to 270 grains.

Eley and Kynoch both offered Nitro for Black loadings with 270 RN lead copper-tube bullets. Kynoch loaded it with 32 grains of Light Express Cordite or an equivalent charge of Axite. Eley used 38 grains Cordite.

The full Nitro Express load appears to have been offered only by Eley. They offered two loads:

1. 40 Cordite, 300 grain round nose cupro-nickel hollow-point.

2. 43 Cordite, 400 grain cupro-nickel jacket softs or solids.

Terry, the crown over a "P" that you described is actually a crown over a stylized interlaced "GP" which stands for "Gunmakers' Proof". This is London's definitive proof mark. The crown over "V" is the "view" mark which signifies inspection for damage after proof firing. London never used a crown over "J" mark for any purpose, so I think that maybe you are looking a the Provisional proof mark, but this mark is surmounted by a lion rampant, not a crown. Look again, under magnification maybe.

In any case, the weapon certainly sounds to be black-powder proof, not nitro. I would probably only go to smokeless if I couldn't get it to regulate with black.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks, 400NE, that's some good additional information. I have the 9th edition of COW and wondered about the information in it. I see it also says that the 10.3X60Rmm Swiss is the exact same cartridge as the .450/400 2-3/8" except that it was loaded with heavier bullets and nitro loads.

I will probably use my Cogswell with Triple Seven, duplex BP or maybe light smokeless loads. I intend to use paperpatch bullets and primarily use it for hunting Whitetail Deer here in Oklahoma. It sure is a nicely made little rifle. I swear it was custom made to my specs 100 years ago...I'll bet the makers knew I would own it someday (ha)!!!