I have been bitten by the 378 Weatherby bug. On paper, it appears that the recoil should be around the same level as a full power 458 Lott. Maybe a little sharper, but basically the same magnitude.

My reference point is a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott with lead in the stock (rifle is 11lbs) and a limbsaver. Standing up, I can handle all she's got to give. Not brave enough to shoot full power at the bench. Is a Mark V with a brake in 378 Weatherby going to be about the same as my Lott, or is it in an entirely different class?

The paper numbers may be similar but the recoil pulses are very different. "Sharp" doesn't quite do it justice. I would plan on a muzzle brake. And this from a guy that won't put one on his 550 Magnum.

When I was younger I used .378s with (Pnedleton) and without brakes, because only Roy made LH at the time.
I found the one with the Pendleton brake very comfortable to shoot. The non braked was rebuilt and stocked by G & H uncomfortable and put the checkered bolt knob into my forefinger and hand everytime. The Pendleton braked one was a thinner barrel profile, so the rifle weighed less.
I have shot a Lott as well. I would say my braked one was easier to shoot than a Lott and the unbraked one was harder to handle, but they are also higher recoil velocity than the Lott in my memory. Some of these new brakes have a horrible "concussion wave" (probably not the right term). ( I picked up a LH Classic in .375 cut to 16.5 and a brake installed. Kicks like a .270 or less, but the "waves" on firing give you a headache quick.)
The .378 is one heck of a game killer! I have no regrets of having used one.

Great question. I think that the above posts are spot on. So many varibles figure in when deciding how much recoil is acceptable. I have many big bore rifles and each one has its own personality. My 9.3 RUM is the worst of the bunch only because its too light and the stock is a cheap Rem 700 SPS. My hunting buddy complains that the hard factory recoild pad on my 458 RSM lott kicks much harder than my RSM in 500 Jeffery with a nice soft aftermarket pad. The 458 lott has 1000 less ft-lbs of energy with the loads I shoot Go figure? I just picked up a 460 Weatherby and I can't wait to shoot it in comparison to my other big bores. Here it is in a nutshell. Get a good fitting rifle with enough weight and work up to full power loads and everything will be fine. The opposit is also true an ill fitting stock, with full power loads in a very light rifle will give you trouble everytime.

Brad

I have shot 2 different 378 Wby's a fair amount.
I have also shot a 460 some and I owned a 416 WBY, and shot it a bunch. All in Weatherby MKIV rifles.

The 460 had the Pendleton brake. It was still pretty thumpy.
The 416 had a KDF style brake, it was still pretty thumpy, I shot it some with out the brake, it was brutal.

One of the 378's had a Pendleton, it was not that bad, the least recoil so far.

The other 378 had a KDF brake instaled by KDF.

It was very mild to shoot. You could shoot it off a Harris Bipod, prone, like a 308 sniper rifle.

IMHO the only advantage a 378 WBY has over a 375 H&H is if you are going to be shooting BIG big game at LONG ranges.
I do not want a brake on a walking around Safari rifle, but if I was using a 378 for long range shooting it would definately have a KDF.
I might even have Phil make me one special that has no holes on the bottom, so as not to kick up grass, snow, dirt etc.

The recoil of a 378 wby will be sharper than your Lott. As someone said the recoil pulse is faster and as a result, a good muzzel brake will tend to work better on such a rifle. Just keep a solid cheek weld and don't let it get a running start on you and you'll be fine.-Rob

I have a Mark V Deluxe in 378Wby and with the brake it is very comfortable to shoot off the bench. I have a CZ550 in 458 Lott that does not have a brake and it is a brute on the bench but not bad off the sticks.

I filed in the iron sights on a Lott, two 470s , a 416 and a 404 last week, at some point I numbed up..They are all monsters, but that wasn't the worst of the pain, that came in the middle of the night on my neck and shoulders, but that wasn't the worst of the pain either, it was those 3 Cortazone shots in my right hand from boxing with those damn trigger guards..My flipp'm off finger looked like a chicken leg and my trigger finger wouldn't work on my gun lube spray can or my shaving cream..Oh and on the neck, I have to wait another two months for that shot, mus'ent over do them you know!

Do yourself a favor, get a 9.3x62 and go to African and shoot everything with gay abandon!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I filed in the iron sights on a Lott, two 470s , a 416 and a 404 last week, at some point I numbed up..They are all monsters, but that wasn't the worst of the pain, that came in the middle of the night on my neck and shoulders, but that wasn't the worst of the pain either, it was those 3 Cortazone shots in my right hand from boxing with those damn trigger guards..My flipp'm off finger looked like a chicken leg and my trigger finger wouldn't work on my gun lube spray can or my shaving cream..Oh and on the neck, I have to wait another two months for that shot, mus'ent over do them you know!

Sounds like too much of a good thing.

Why not just do one big bore, or two, at a session? That numbing feeling is a good sign to be stoping after shooting the next group. After the gun is sighted in, then during hunting there is not very much shooting to do. At least with the stronger loads one can remember that the rifle fired, sort of. Things tend to blank out for an unnoticed moment.

quote:

Atkinson: Do yourself a favor, get a 9.3x62 and go to African and shoot everything with gay abandon!

Or a 375 H&H

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

Atkinson: Do yourself a favor, get a 9.3x62 and go to African and shoot everything with gay abandon!

Or a 375 H&H

If we play that game then get a 416Rigby and load 350 grain bullets to 2800+ fps. I'm not sure that there is much difference from such a 416 and the 378 with 300 grain bullets at 3000fps.

Limit yourself to a half dozen rounds at a time and it should be OK. Don't forget to do occasional dry firing +/- dummy rounds to prevent flinching.

As others have mentioned, the recoil between the 458 Lott and the 378 Weatherby are similar but that of the 378 Weatherby seems to come faster (I guess you could also say sharper). Mine aren't braked and I like it that way.

The 378 Weatherby was my first Weatherby Weatherby and I was pleasantly surprised. The wood is beautiful, the stock is trim, it has a skinny barrel and it shoots REALLY well.

Pitdog,

Would you consider a 375 Weatherby?

quote:

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Pitdog,

Would you consider a 375 Weatherby?

If that route, the 375 Ruger is easier to get and less expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:

quote:

Atkinson: Do yourself a favor, get a 9.3x62 and go to African and shoot everything with gay abandon!

Or a 375 H&H

If we play that game then get a 416Rigby and load 350 grain bullets to 2800+ fps. I'm not sure that there is much difference from such a 416 and the 378 with 300 grain bullets at 3000fps.

Limit yourself to a half dozen rounds at a time and it should be OK. Don't forget to do occasional dry firing +/- dummy rounds to prevent flinching.

Or a 375 Weatherby!

I used to own a Mk V in .378 that did not have a brake. The recoil is VERY fast. I could see it destroying scopes. My CZ550 in .416 Rigby is a pussy cat compared to it. Heck, the .460 I had was more pleasant to shoot with the pendleton brake.

I agree with Atkinson.

Since a.375 H&H will easily kill anything you hit in the front of the chest with a 300 grain bullet at 2500, and since its trajectory is flat enough for the longest shot you are likely to get in the Zambezi valley, why even fool with a .378? Or a .458 Lott for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I agree with Atkinson.

Since a.375 H&H will easily kill anything you hit in the front of the chest with a 300 grain bullet at 2500, and since its trajectory is flat enough for the longest shot you are likely to get in the Zambezi valley, why even fool with a .378? Or a .458 Lott for that matter.

Why fool with a 378 or 458 Lott?

Because live animals move at the wrong time and create marginal shots. And grass and twigs create marginal shots, sometimes unobserved. But the 378 is not the best answer to these concerns. 416's are better, 458 better still and I've recently convinced myself that a light, handy 500 (AccRel) is even better. If given the choice, then we should put the marginal shots in our own corner.

Having said all of the above, I would gladly go hunting Mbogo with a 338WM. Ray A. would agree. But there is much less margin for unforseen circumstances. The first concern is the hunt, then getting ahold of the biggest, accurate rifle that one can use and recover from for second shots. And I just got another 5" eye-relief scope that I think can ease one of the recoil concerns.

quote:

And I just got another 5" eye-relief scope that I think can ease one of the recoil concerns.

Ahh, a 5" eye relief scope. Very useful for preventing injuries to the forehead. I have one (a 2.5 x Leupold compact) on my 505 Gibbs. Now I can shoot the thing with a scope and not even think about the possibility of blood flowing down my face.

Back when I was a young man and Col Askins, took the time to help a left hander learn to run a rifle, I remember him saying just before we shot the 378, IT was the only big bore he shot , he knew was going to hurt, don't know if he was trying to buffaloe me or not, but it was a little much for me at that time, but it sure kills elk quick/fast/and in a damn hurry

I have a 9.3x62 and its a favorite caliber of mine, so is the .375 and both kill buffalo well enough to suit me...

My favorite DG rifle is a 404 Jefferys and always has been, but I have hunted Buffalo and in some cases elephant with the 458 Lott, 470 N.E., 500 Jefferys and 505.

Based on the above I am sure that the larger the hole in the barrel (at velocity of 2000 FPS or more) the quicker it kills..but I know my limitations on recoil, thus my choice of the 404 Jefferys. I do shoot it better.

Knowing your recoil limitations doesn't mean that you cannot shoot the 505 for instance but it may mean tha you cannot shoot the caliber without any "THOUGHT" of the oncoming recoil..With the 404 I never even consider the recoil, with the 458 Lott and up I have to steel my mind to accept the oncoming recoil, and if I have to do that, then in the field it ain't going to work all that well IMO..

When someone tells you they don't flinch and can't feel any recoil when shooting game, don't believe it, that's a half truth..They probably can't feel the recoil or don't recall it, whichever the case may be, but if you flinch on the range or at a practice session, then you have set up muscle memory and you will flinch on game, weather you feel it or not..That's the culpritt for bad shooting and wounded game, and unfortunatly it happens all the time, every year I see it..

Bottom line is "BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF" You would be surprised how many are not!! You might be very surprised how well a 9.3x62 will kill buffalo. With a properly placed 286 or 300 gr. bullet in a 9.3x62 it kills well and has killed more buffalo than all the big bores in Africa put together. The 9.3x62, 303, 318, 7x57 and later the 404 we're the darlings of early Africa and those old men had no complaints on them not even for even elephant. It makes one wonder how come todays hunters think one must use a 458 Lott or larger even with a PH to back them up. This is a truism.

That said, I still recommend that one use as big a caliber as he can shoot "well". No harm in that if he is honest with himself, and some enjoy this part of the game and thats a good thing, but only if they can shoot them...

The problem is with those that are not honest with themselves and they are many, ask about any PH....

I do not understand the theory behind recoil velocity being different as long as the momentum (including powder charge) is the same. Recoil = Momentum (the other half coming back). From what i can see on the various recoil calculators i find online, recoil velocity increases linearly in relation to recoil energy no matter if the round is fast and light or heavy and slow (as long as total energy output is the same).

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I do not understand the theory behind recoil velocity being different as long as the momentum (including powder charge) is the same. Recoil = Momentum (the other half coming back). From what i can see on the various recoil calculators i find online, recoil velocity increases linearly in relation to recoil energy no matter if the round is fast and light or heavy and slow (as long as total energy output is the same).

Actually, I don't understand it either. I know, however, that things can feel different on the shoulder for whatever reason.



I don't think I flinch. I'm not sure exactly what my recoil limit is since the biggest I've shot are a 458 Lott and a 378 Weatherby; both unbraked. The 378 Weatherby is close to my limit though.

Not trying to change the course of this thread but I believe that what ever can be said about the 378 Wby can also be said of the 375 RUM as far as recoil is concerned. They are ballistic twins after all, or close to it if one loads them to equal pressures (65000 psi).

This was taken from Wikipedia...

(The .378 Weatherby will generate considerable free recoil, an average of 104 J (77 ft·lbf) from a 4.1 kg (9 lb) rifle. This compares to 27 J (20 ft·lbf) from a rifle chambered for .30-06 Springfield. But is only 10% more than the recoil of the .375 H&H Magnum while having 22% more energy. It has less recoil than almost all cartridges of its energy. While the recoil is stiff, exaggerations have likely done a lot to reduce the popularity of this caliber.)

It's a testamonial to the recoil of the 378 Wby, that Art Alphin, self proclaimed creator of the 500 A2 / 500 Wells said that after he shot an unbraked 378 Wby that he had no intention of doing so ever again ...

There is a .378 on Guns International that looks like it was bought new and heavily worked over by Sisk. Its been calling me. But I don't for a second believe that the recoil impulse is at 30-06 levels, when lighting off 115 grains of powder behind a 270 grain bullet. As this rifle has been for sale for at least 6 months, I'm not the only one whose not buying into it. A 375 H&H (which I have) is all I care to be pounded by.

The hot 375s are probably the only caliber that I would suggest shooting nothing but monolithic bullets in..I have seen a lot of failures with the caliber blowing up bullets early on..

The monolithics seem to work fine and they really kill well, but they do normally loose the frontal portion however. Penetration is excellent..Again, like with all calibers a properly construced bullet can make all the difference in the world..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The hot 375s are probably the only caliber that I would suggest shooting nothing but monolithic bullets in..I have seen a lot of failures with the caliber blowing up bullets early on..

The monolithics seem to work fine and they really kill well, but they do normally loose the frontal portion however. Penetration is excellent..Again, like with all calibers a properly construced bullet can make all the difference in the world..

On the Big Bore 'Terminals' thread you will soon have "Raptors" where the front is designed to blow off in an expanding hexagon of destruction up to about 10 devastating inches.

If older-style mushroomed-petals are desired, then all-copper monolithics need to be kept at impact velocities 2700fps and under. But even with blow petals they will kill nicely.

416 Tanzan,
Agreed...all that said, I have no desire to use the hot 375s or 416s..I like the option of of useing cup and core bonded bullets such as the Woodleighs, a bullet I am exceptionally fond of in my std. calibers..

High velocity magnum Dangerous Game calibers do not intrigue me anymore, tried them, didn't care for them..

Actually one of the most intrigueing calibers I have used on Buffalo and one hippo was the 10.75x68, a rather meek round that killed about as good as anyone could want and recoiled about like a 9.3x62, It is an awesome caliber at attested to by Harold Wolfe and quite a number of aussie buffalo hunters. I gave up on it because the only good brass available was Horneber and it looks like they have gone tits up, and if so then it will be a wall hanger or you can shoot Bertram brass, and that is not an option with me...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
416 Tanzan,
Agreed...all that said, I have no desire to use the hot 375s or 416s..I like the option of of useing cup and core bonded bullets such as the Woodleighs, a bullet I am exceptionally fond of in my std. calibers..

High velocity magnum Dangerous Game calibers do not intrigue anymore, tried them, didn't care for them..

Agree. At one time I had an unbraked 378 whtby in a Mark V....in my view, that particular rifle was the worst recoiling rifle I have ever shot and I have owned and/or shot 416s, 404s, 458 Lotts, 460 whtby (breaked version), 500 NE, 577 NE, etc.

Possibly there are a few folks that can handle an unbraked 378 in a Mark V for long range shooting but I cannot imagine a worst tool for the job, given recoil and shooting positions require to pull off a 400+ yd shot. If we are talking about hunting DG then closer the better...

Fast 375s, 416s, etc do make much sense in my view but to each their own...

The custom 378 Sisk rifle on Guns Intl is mine. Not only is it a .6 shooter or better with 270 Barnes TSX, it was built to be shootable. I made the same offer to Lee above...if you're interested, I'll send it to you for trial, and hold on to the check until you confirm you want it. If not, send it back. I just reduced it by $600 the other day, so it's a great grab.

quote:

... given recoil and shooting positions require to pull off a 400+ yd shot

that's why 4" eye-relief is mandatory and 5" is better.

I agree that 378Wth is not the tool for the job. A 338WM was my 'go to' plains calibre, with premium bullets and either 2700 or 2800 fps. However, since some of us still hunt while wandering the forest we need a one-gun compromise. Mine has been a 416 at 2800fps. It has all the range that I could want for Africa and reasonable thump for buffalo. (I don't do hippo or ele.) Most days I enjoy shooting it, somedays I don't. So it's right on a margin where I like to do dryfiring to make sure I'm tight. Last October I accidently 'fired' an empty chamber while sighting-in. My son remarked that the barrel was rock-steady. good to know. It's important that a hunter know that whatever calibre they are shooting, it's just a rifle. A person needs to treat a 416 and higher like a 270, which is easier to do if one doesn't shoot it all day long. But to be honest, there are positions that I won't shoot any rifle over a 270. I certainly don't shoot with my back/shoulder against a tree or hard surface.

On positions, there have been several occasions where I've made long shots from a sitting position, and even a 270 once tipped me off the back of the top of a pickup cab. And the only prone shots that I remember are shooting geese from across a river, again with lighter calibre like 270 and 222. Africa is pretty much an upright affair, either kneeling over a log, rock/anthill, standing next to a tree, or offhand, or shooting sticks. Recoil is not the problem.