I submit that the bolt action repeaters by:
Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Browning, etc.
ought to reach the retail buyer ready to fire
flatnose bullets such as: Federal, NF & CEB. If
those feed then I expect the RN bullets will
as well. Charge a few more dollers per rifle
if that is required, and have then leave the fac-
tory in a TRUE state of readiness!!!

Question:
DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE?

Choices:
Agree
Disagree

 

Yep, rifles should feed and function with cartridges loaded spitzers, semi-spitzers, round nose, and properly designed flat nose bullets directly from the factory without issue.

Wha I find rather sad is the indifferent state of some factory rifles one gets.

Some are so rough, it is very hard to imagine any sort of quality inspection has been done on them.

Others are fantastic, and shoot as accurately as any of our custom made.

With CNC machining, there is no excuse for mega-million factories to produce rifles with an improper geometry.

Smaller or older factories using traditional techniques do incur extra man-hours to finish a rifle to more exacting tolerance, so it's a question of "you get what you pay for" if "they provide what they charge for"...

A rifle that retails around $ 1000 leaves the factory for $300-$400, how much time do you think they can put in to fine-tune it?

If you buy a run-of-the-mill car for, say, $12,000, you don't expect it to accelerate, brake, and take corners like the same car custom-tuned and modded for $$$ to make it a street racer...

Now, if you dole out $3-4000 on a rifle with nicely figured stock, shiny deep-blue finish, slick trigger, 24lpi fleur-de-lys checkering, and it doesn't feed any available shape of bullets, you do have a friggin' right to complain!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Wha I find rather sad is the indifferent state of some factory rifles one gets.

Some are so rough, it is very hard to imagine any sort of quality inspection has been done on them.

Others are fantastic, and shoot as accurately as any of our custom made.

I agree with this 100%. The fact that some factory rifles are turned out running like a fine Swiss watch and others from the same company are garbage shows that the ability to produce quality is there, but the quality control to ensure that it happens almost every time isn't. I have picked up many brand new rifles from major manufacturers off of the stand at my local gun shop which obviously had defects: forends that were putting considerable pressure on one side of the barrel, triggers that were absolutely horrid, actions that were sticky at best, and metal work that was nowhere near being finished properly. That being said, the M70 Winchester I bought last year is fantastic. It is a prime example of the quality product that can be produced WHEN the workers/company care enough to ensure it happens. Sadly, there are too many lemons produced to prevent me from being bitter about the overall quality being turned out by many manufacturers today.

To address the original question, flat nose profile solids, loaded in dangerous game cartridges, are becoming common today and the dangerous game rifles which will be used to shoot them should function flawlessly. The producers of these firearms should ensure that they do indeed actually function with common dangerous game ammunition. If it takes a slight increase in the price tag to do so, then so be it. A firearm should be able to shoot commonly available ammunition; especially when said rifle and ammunition were marketed with the same purpose in mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
With CNC machining, there is no excuse for mega-million factories to produce rifles with an improper geometry.

Smaller or older factories using traditional techniques do incur extra man-hours to finish a rifle to more exacting tolerance, so it's a question of "you get what you pay for" if "they provide what they charge for"...

A rifle that retails around $ 1000 leaves the factory for $300-$400, how much time do you think they can put in to fine-tune it?

If you buy a run-of-the-mill car for, say, $12,000, you don't expect it to accelerate, brake, and take corners like the same car custom-tuned and modded for $$$ to make it a street racer...

Now, if you dole out $3-4000 on a rifle with nicely figured stock, shiny deep-blue finish, slick trigger, 24lpi fleur-de-lys checkering, and it doesn't feed any available shape of bullets, you do have a friggin' right to complain!

I agree with everything you just posted! However the fact is that most bolt rifles that leave the factory have zero fitting done past the CNC machining. For the most part the only hands that ever touch a rifle are the people who put them together in and assembly line fashion like the auto industry.

CNC machining can only do the hog work and only gets the parts close to the final shape. The fact is it requires human hands if the firearm is expected to operate properly every time. That is the reason so many bolt rifle makes are now push feed. That had nothing to do with being BETTER than a CRF action because it isn't, but simply made the rifle easier( read cheaper) to make completely by a CNC machine, instead of skilled human hands.

................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:

A rifle that retails around $ 1000 leaves the factory for $300-$400, how much time do you think they can put in to fine-tune it?

If you buy a run-of-the-mill car for, say, $12,000, you don't expect it to accelerate, brake, and take corners like the same car custom-tuned and modded for $$$ to make it a street racer...

Now, if you dole out $3-4000 on a rifle with nicely figured stock, shiny deep-blue finish, slick trigger, 24lpi fleur-de-lys checkering, and it doesn't feed any available shape of bullets, you do have a friggin' right to complain!

I think the correct analogy would be to expect the $12K car to start every time.

Functionality should be there regardless of the cost.

Just like my handloads my rifles may need a bit of "tweaking" to meet my standards. Do you expect them to come from the factory sighted in too?

I can see that new rifles should feed any of the ammunition in it's caliber furnished by the major manufactures,that's, Winchester,Remington and Federal. I have stated before that I must be the luckiest person in the shooting world as I have NEVER purchased a rifle that did NOT perform this function new. I really feel for all the people that receive all this shoddy merchandise.I will state also that I do not expect a new rifle to shoot all brands and loads accurately at all ranges. I suppose I'm just not picky enough.

I guess it depends on what one calls "tweaking".

To me feeding from the magazine, not firing when the safety is on, firing when I squeeze the trigger (with safety off), extractor working properly, stock fitting and not being loose are all basic functions of a firearm and should not need "tweaking".

Now, people buy certain bargain firearms not expecting all functions to work properly, but to use that firearm as a platform for customization (e.g. CZs etc.). that is fine as long as the customer knows what he is getting into.

I expect the mainstream firearms companies that are advertising functional firearms to have all functions work.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
With CNC machining, there is no excuse for mega-million factories to produce rifles with an improper geometry.

Smaller or older factories using traditional techniques do incur extra man-hours to finish a rifle to more exacting tolerance, so it's a question of "you get what you pay for" if "they provide what they charge for"...

A rifle that retails around $ 1000 leaves the factory for $300-$400, how much time do you think they can put in to fine-tune it?

If you buy a run-of-the-mill car for, say, $12,000, you don't expect it to accelerate, brake, and take corners like the same car custom-tuned and modded for $$$ to make it a street racer...

Now, if you dole out $3-4000 on a rifle with nicely figured stock, shiny deep-blue finish, slick trigger, 24lpi fleur-de-lys checkering, and it doesn't feed any available shape of bullets, you do have a friggin' right to complain!

Hi Phil,

I am not talking about "prettying up" the rifle at all.
I AM talking about paying a few more bucks If Needed,
to make sure it feeds flat nose bullets!!! Nothing else.

Of all the new DG rifles I have owned over the past 20 years, the only one that did NOT need work to meet my requirements for reliability and shootability in a DG rifle was my Browning A-Bolt II in .375H&H. It stopped going over after the first few years as I learned quickly to use more gun. And yes, I can shoot.

Rifles included The Browning A-Bolt II, Remington Mdl 700 (1) & Custom Shop (1), Winchester Mdl 70 SSK built B&M (1) & Custom Shop (1), CZ American and Ruger RSM. Calibers were .375H&H, 375RUM, 416Rem (2),458Lott (2) & 458B&M.

All the rifles, including those from the Custom Shops, needed to be returned to the factory or worked on myself to make them DG worthy. Everything from replacing POS OE recoil pads to adjusting feeding of FN bullets, replacing triggers to installing proper iron sights. Each rifle fired 100s of full house rounds at the range prior to going across the pond.

The result of my personal experience with DG rifles is that I would NEVER expect a DG rifle to be Africa ready without firing 100s of rounds at the range to proof the rifle. And I would fully expect to have it require additional work to meet my requirements. I have seen too many failures of rifles belonging to hunting partners after arrival in Africa.

You must be pretty lucky with A Bolts as I've never seen one that did work for very long. Maybe the ll designation helped. .
I don't want a 700$ rifle costing 1400$ . If I have to do some home fix it on little things that's fine with me. But I agree that a guy should plan on wearing a rifle out shooting it. I'm definately not into nice wood stocks and pretty blueing . And not into spending $$$$ on that.
But I do agree they all should hold the ammo in the mag. Feed properly fire and be accurate and eject properly as off the shelf factory rifles.
My big pet peve is I'll fitting stocks. Not the inletting but rather how the stock fits me.
And the line that everyone is different is semi baloney. Ide be willing to bet that most members here would find that a long tang Model 71 Winchester or a 425 Wesley Richards fit them quite well for iron sighted big game hunting. But its about impossible to find a factory stock that even comes close any more.
Fortunately Boyd's Classic is a well fitting off hand stock. And they inlet for almost every bolt action on the planet.

quote:

Botique bullets in handloads....gimme a break!Having said that, most gunsmiths will accomodate handloads, just give him a heads up early in the build. Provide dummies with OAL not greater than SAAMI or CIP specs

That's what did with my 416 Taylor works just fine.

AS far as factory rifle as with any thing manufactured on a assembly line.

A few are great, most are avg. and a few are poor.

If your lucky you get a great one if unlucky you get a poor one.

Most get a avg. one.

That's why almost all my factory rifles get some work. Bedding most common, after market triggers next, then some polishing.

If one can do the work him self one can turn that standard factory rifle into something nicer, and better then when it came of the line.

For not much money.

quote:

Botique bullets in handloads....gimme a break!Having said that, most gunsmiths will accommodate handloads, just give him a heads up early in the build. Provide dummies with OAL not greater than SAAMI or CIP specs

I agree with this mostly - but if the rifles magazine will safely accommodate a longer CAOL and that's what the customer desires then that should be the service delivered.

A case example... Customer's cartridge selected is the 404 Jeffery which has a CIP 3.503" COAL. Customer's selected the CZ 550 Magnum action with almost a 3.9" internal magazine length. Customer wants to use a 3.8" COAL with long bullets which will require modifying the throat specification to accommodate the bullet and COAL. Why not do so?

Or make the magazine's a 3.655" internal length and the customer wants to load bullets to 3.6" COAL and to do so require no modification of the 404 Jeffery throat CIP specification. Why not?