Hey guys just wondering what the limitations to this round is i use the 444 for deer and bear altough never shot bear yet.I love it most of my hunting is 50 yards and under. just how far is this round good for??????

Tbear.
It's been widely said 150 yards... if you can shoot it, and if you reload, you should be great that far. Be sure to practice at that distance, as teh "big pistol bullets" don't have the best external ballistics in the world

Welcome to the forum, and please tell us about your gun

jeffe

45/70's & .444's are good for between 130 yards & 150 yards I reckon although I figure there at there best between 10 to 100 yards.

PC
I'll suggest that the 444 and the 45-70 are two different types of cartridges. The 444 was designed around using pistol bullets and seldom, if ever used with the longer rifle bullets. The 444 twist is was not set up to handle the longer rifle bullets, 400 to 500 grains. The 45-70 started out using a 500 grain bullet and as the shooters got more tender the bullets got lighter.
There were a lot of target records set way back shooting the 45-70 at 1,000 yards, Bisley, Creedmore, and Wimbleton, maybe that was a tennis match. [Damned difficult shooting at tennis balls, but I'm sure it was done some where.] Lots of American Bison got shot with 45-70s at long distance and not a few red Indians got potted with the 45-70 at a distance.
Jim

[ 12-11-2002, 06:33: Message edited by: arkypete ]

There are 405-grainers you can get from Beartooth Bullets, but most guys using .444 Marlins for big stuff opt for 300- or 330-grain bullets. I'd try to limit myself to 150 yards, maaaaaaaaaaybe 175 or so, but it would depend on the animal, shot presentation, the bullet you're using, et cetera. With 300-grainers, you can get fairly warm loads up around, and a tad over, 2200 FPS -- but be advised, it WILL hurt at both ends of the gun, if you know what I mean.

Russ

Arkypete,
While I don't disagree with what you said, this was more of marksmanship that hunting. Those guns, at long range, would NOT be suitable for bear at hunting distances, due to holdover and retained energy...

the 'classic' 45/70 load (405 rem sp SD .276 at 1550) (3" RADIUS vitals) has a max point blank range at 128 yards

vx 444 marlin (handloads)
300gr sd .232 at 1900 (3" RADIUS vitals) has a max point blank range at 139 yards
(according to quickload)

just to clearify my thoughts.

jeffe

[ 12-11-2002, 06:57: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso

I was just making a minor point in the differences between to two cartridges.
Out in Texas where a fella can stand on a cinder block and see into last week in one direction and into next week facing the other. I'm surprized that any cartridge of similar ballistics to the 45-70, etc. would be used.
Here in Virginia a 150 yard shot would make the news papers, because of the trees and under growth.
When I hunted I used a bolt action 45-70 with Williams reciever site. The loads were a bit warm, using a case full of IMR 4064 behind a 445 grain cast bullet. I sighted in for a couple inches high at a 100 yards, just in case I had that long shot.
Now days I shoot off hand using a Winchester 1886 at the range. I enjoy banging away at steel targets at 100 and 200 yards. I don't hit them every time but my misses are getting rare. I load a 350 grain cast bullet ahead of 50 grains of RL-7 and go have fun.
Some days I'll bang away at the 500 yard gong with the Winchester, and yes there's a bunch of misses until I get the range. One of my shooting buds suggested that I get an Army supplus rifle granade site, since I mostly shooting close to verticle.
Jim

Hey guys just wanted to thank you for your responses i'm using a marlin mod 444ss and love the gun so far i have only used remington's 240 gr soft point on deer but plan on getting better ammo for the bear as i said i don't shoot this past 50 yrds but was wondering incase i might see something in a clearing of course the key is to practice at distances resonable.i will probally use buffalo bore's 300 or 335gr bullets since i don't reload yet.I bought this gun for a nice brush gun if i need distance i have alot better rifles that fit that catagory.Thnx again and i won't plan on exceeding 150yds max TBEAR

Arky
Sounds like you have a grand ole time. I love shooting targets at whatever range I can hit em.. and yep.,.. 500 is a chore, even with a high vel rifle.

Not all of Texas is wide and flat... Especially east and central and even the hill country.. The forrest are thick on public lands (most of the time) and there are plenty of trees, thick brush, creeks, hills, and just plain cover to make your stalkin worthwhile.

Now, if you go South.. there's where you'll see the dawn coming at sunset!!

cheers
jeffe

OK, here's my two cents.

The 444 is an excellent deer and hog round, and the newer ones with a fast twist pushing 300 grain bullets should be a very good for black bears and elk.

The 45-70 is in another class, offering not only more bullet diameter, but also substantially more bullet weight. The 45-70 tops out with grizzly bears instead of black bears.

One thin is for sure if your a 45/70 user forget the sierra 300 gr HPFN .458 pro-hunter they lose there jacket as soon as they com into contact with anything !!

The bullet I would reccomend for 45/70 users is the woodleigh 405 gr FP 45/70 bullet, it hangs togeter and mushrooms perfectly, it go well for you blokes whom hunt big NA game I reckon.

[ 12-12-2002, 04:39: Message edited by: PC ]

PC, I have a bunch of those sierra 300's that I was going to use in my Lott. I figured they would be good for deer and practice.

TBEAR99,
I used my Marlin 444ss this year deer hunting with the Hornady 265 grain Light Mags. The light mags work well on whitetails, the one I shot never took a step. Bryan

Ya'll be careful now about talking about your 45-70's and .444's. Those people on that African forum see this there gonna get mighty upset. My self, I like my 86 ex. lt. and my 444, there both fun to shoot and reload for.

TBEAR99, check out Beartooth bullets web site for some great articles on loading for and hunting with the .444 Marlin. Also take a look at Marlin's web site, they have a "big bore" forum where you can find a lot of info 'bout your .444 lever gun. Regards, Guy

The 444Marlin is good for 200yards. It can send a 300gr bullet 2200+ fron a 22' barrel That's with jacketed bullets. With hardcast it will better that. I've owned and handloaded for the 444 for many years. It is one of the most under rated and misunderstood cartridges in the world. It is good for any animal you can take with the 45-70. I've had both and favor the 444. The outfitter with an 18.5 barrel with 1in 20 twist will stabilize 400gr bullets. A favorite load of mine pushes a 290gr LFNGC at 2225'/sec and is not a max load. This is from the 18.5 barrel. Try one , you'll like it.
wort

500,

those sierra's at lott speeds will behave like ballistic tips. I get core seprations on small roo's at 45/70 speeds !!

If your presented with a shot at your whitetail deers broadside it will kill them like chain lighteneing I reckon, but if the shot is difficult in any way I would not trust them. I figure a whitetail is 200-300 pounds ???

500, I want to build a lott to fire those Reminton 405 gr 45/70 bullets there cheap and not as soft as the sierra's, but still expand.

TBear99,
As you can see any talk about the 444 always brings out the 45/70 crowd. Mostly to throw rocks and tout the mortar like trajectory of the 45/70. I own both the 444 and 45/70. I prefer the 444, I think because the rifle, Win 94BB is so damn easy to use in tight woods and the Marlin isn't as handy. I personally don't think either should be used over 100 yards with iron sights and probably not past 150 yards w/ a scope. I load my 444 w/ 265 gr FP Hornaday over H322 and Barnes 225 gr "X" over Re-7. Like I said, if you wannna watch a 444 vs 45/70 flame war, just fan the fire a little bit.

To me, so much BS comes up in the argument of the .444 vs the .45-70. As mentioned, nobody can even bring up the .444 without hearing the .45-70 is better.

I have used the .444 Marlin for years and shot the barrel out of an older 444S. I had it rebarreled from Marlin with the newer 1-20" twist Ballard Type rifling barrel. It will stabilize 405g cast bullets now.

Many .45-70 fans are quick to point out that 240g bullets are pistol bullets - but they fail to point out that many bullets used in the .45-70 are designed for Trapdoor (i.e. pistol) velocities and will disentigrate if driven to 2200 fps. On the other hand, many other .458 bullets are designed for .458 magnum velocities and act like solids at .45-70 speeds. It's all about PICKING THE RIGHT bullet you need for the job, regardless of if you are using the .444 or the .45-70 (or any other caliber for that matter).

So looking at the current production .444 rifles Marlin makes, here are some myths that are not true:

1) It will not stablilze bullets over 265g - wrong, 3 years ago Marlin switched to a 1-20" twist on all .444s and it will now stablilze up to 405g bullets.

2) It will not shoot cast bullets. Again wrong, for the last 3 years they have used Ballard cut rifling.

3) Only bullets that operate at "pistol" velocities are available. Nope, the Hornady 265 is rated for 2400 fps, the 300g XTP is rated for 2200 fps. Barnes and Hawk also make 300g bullets that are very strong. Beartooth (as well as some other companies) make bullets at 300g, 335g, 350g, and 405g that are suitable for the .444 Marlin.

When loaded properly, there isn't a hill of beans difference in the two.

The .444 will crush deer and black bear with authority. I can hit a 6" plate at 200 yards with mine with ease.

FWIW, I now own a 1895G in .45-70 and have shot quite a few rounds of .45-70 in other people's guns over the years.

[ 12-16-2002, 01:37: Message edited by: Buzz ]

Mr. Buzz,
You hit the nail on the head.
wort