It would be nice to have medical thoughts collected in a thread dealing with recoil and headache.

A PH once (over thirty years ago) commented to me about headaches. He claimed that all calibre were shootable and huntable, with the possible exception of the 378Weatherby. He claimed that the 378 gave him headaches.

What would be the mechanism(s) of such alleged headaches?

How are they best ameliorated?

Does dieting, weightloss, hemoglobin levels, alcohol, bloodthinniers, and/or dehydration affect them?

Is there an interaction between either recoil velocity or muzzle velocity and the headache mechanism?

Why would a person sometimes feel headaches after shooting "378Weatherby" ballistics (300grains at 3000fps, also achievable or surpassable in 416Rigby/416Weatherby, etc.) and sometimes be oblivious to any side effects?

What lessons are learned on amount of daily shooting or frequency of shooting at levels beyond the threshholds involved?

In other words, what do we know medically about recoil and headache?

I shoot all the big calibers, and the only one which truly gave headache was a Blaser R93 in 9.3.

It had the most awful stock, and kept clobbering me each time I pulled the trigger.

I have gone through this too, and it was a 378 Weatherby as well, it gave me an instant headache. I fired one shot and politely passed it back to it's owner. I did not fire any more rounds that day, packed up and left the range. It really knocked me around, like firing 2 416 Rigby shells at once.
I truly believe this is caused by recoil velocity, not the overall amount of recoil energy. The same boils down to how some powders produce a much sharper impulse with the same weight bullets. H4350 is a lot sharper in recoil than many other powders in my own 375 Weatherby, 760 is a pussycat in comparison.

I wouldn't say I'm recoil sensitive, but my 458 Lott has given me a headache and toothache after firing a couple dozen rounds working up some loads and chrony work in an afternoon. I think I fired a dozen too many rounds on that afternoon, it was hot too which added to the effects, I feel.

Cheers.

I think the medical advice is something to the effect of the old joke "Doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the doctor responds "so don't do that".
The human body is fairly tough and resilient but there are limits to how much energy you can absorb whether it is muzzle blast or recoil energy. Good physical condition and good shooting form will help. But notice at some point the big guns get mounted on wheels.

I have endured headaches numerous times throughout the past years.Some lasted for a couple of days and others a couple of weeks.It has gotten to the point where I can accurately predict when and how long I will have them.It is scary stuff really.I don't need to shoot a big bore to get them.Many rounds of 308 will do the same.Yes,a certain amount of shooting is needed to bring the headache on.When you get them you will have the symptoms of a concussion like disturbed sleep, inability to concentrate etc...
IMO,they will affect your overall health.
IMO, shooting is like boxing.You may not be able to notice the effects a few light jabs to the
head but do this weekly for years and you might get headaches and who knows what else.

one hit to the body

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
I think the medical advice is something to the effect of the old joke "Doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the doctor responds "so don't do that".
The human body is fairly tough and resilient but there are limits to how much energy you can absorb whether it is muzzle blast or recoil energy. Good physical condition and good shooting form will help. But notice at some point the big guns get mounted on wheels.

"I truly believe this is caused by recoil velocity" I've had the question in my mind for a long time of whether the slope of the pressure curve is responsible for recoil velocity and some of the "nasty" recoil of certain rifles that otherwise don't have a lot of recoil.

Years ago I had an invitation to shoot starlings in a feed lot. First of the season, 500 rounds of 12 gauge would leave me with a headache. After a couple of weeks of shooting, no headache.

Dave

I've gotten them patterning turkey loads. I got to where I took aspirin before going to the range. Then I wised up and quit patterning turkey loads and to hell with turkeys, too -- big, stinky, ugly things and stringy meat fit only for pot pies.



P.S. Duane, I think your friend was right; mild concussion.

I have never shot a 378 Wby... But my 416 Wby with 300 grs bullets at 3200 fps.. That load never gave me any hint of a headache... But my 8 ibs 500 AccRel (570 grs at 2350 fps) does after around 20 shots .. And my 577 TRex after 10-15 shots...

quote:

A friend/ MD and big bore shooter advised me ..."That headache is actually a concussion"

Does proper hydration help to prevent them or diminish them?

quote:

rounds of 12 gauge would leave me with a headache. After a couple of weeks of shooting, no headache.

what is the medical explanation of this? I've noticed something similar with brusing on a shoulder. After a long layoff, the shoulder will often bruise, but after shooting for a couple weeks the bruises go away and don't come back. What causes that?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

A friend/ MD and big bore shooter advised me ..."That headache is actually a concussion"

Does proper hydration help to prevent them or diminish them?

quote:

rounds of 12 gauge would leave me with a headache. After a couple of weeks of shooting, no headache.

what is the medical explanation of this? I've noticed something similar with brusing on a shoulder. After a long layoff, the shoulder will often bruise, but after shooting for a couple weeks the bruises go away and don't come back. What causes that?

In answer to your first question do you mean shooting under water?
In answer to your second question, I don't think the bruises in your brain will go away the more you shoot.

You might want to buy a mouth guard wore by football players. Mold it per the instructions with boiling water and use it while your shooting. It prevents your lower jaw from slaming into your upper jaw during recoil. Works like a charm

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I shoot all the big calibers, and the only one which truly gave headache was a Blaser R93 in 9.3.

It had the most awful stock, and kept clobbering me each time I pulled the trigger.

I think it's possible that if you even glanced at Walter's R 93 you would probably get a headache.

Anyway, regarding headache and recoil, I would say the most likely cause in most cases would be from strain on muscles and ligaments in the neck. Underlying degenerative arthritis would make this more likely to happen.

Happily, neither a 378 nor a 460 Weatherby Magnum gives me headache. I also have an R 93 375 H&H Magnum barrel and it doesn't give me a headache.

fWIW I have not had a headache for years and NEVER had one induced from shooting anything! I imagine though a scope whacking someone's head could be pretty good at inducing a headache. Shootaway uses his shooting helmet wood screwed to the stock of his gun to avoid this problem! -Rob

Like hell a gun is going to hurt me / or perhaps you can teach yourself to take recoil ?

Yes like thinking shooting does not effect your hearing. Nothing like a hearing test to show you up on that one


I will make a statement: If a gun has the potential of bruising a shoulder when shot it is doing damage to the shooter , whether the shooters wants to admit it or not. Stock design etc may change felt recoil but the recoil energy does not simply vanish into thin air, it is still there but the impulse is altered.

There are 3 physical aspects of recoil that produce injury. 1. Recoil energy . 2 recoil velocity and lastly 3. Recoil impulse. What is not clear is which of the 3 parameters is the most accurate measure of injury potential.

The guidelines for firearms safety in the US military limit how many rounds may be shot in a session per day by servicemen in training dependent on the firearm used. This determined by study into the effects of firing recoil producing weapons on individuals.

Objective measurement data done by standardized experiment on US servicemen show that recoil from standard issue combat rifles and shoulder fired arms do measurable damage to the shooter.

Muscle enzymes and muscle injury markers are raised after shooting weapons, MRI studies show internal damage and nerve performance studies (EMG) on hand and arm function show transient nerve damage.

Accuracy and performance drops off. What is something of a concern is that objective changes in brain function also appear such as changes in Eye movement and CNS performance.

What is unclear is what the threshold is for these findings to go from transient to permanent.

So whilst some here may claim they are bulletproof to recoil the objective data show the contrary.

I haven't formally studied recoil and headache, but going with my experiences and what I have seen personally, any heavy recoiling caliber which gives one a headache with one shot is likely a concussion or some other sort of traumatic brain injury.

I would strongly recommend you stop shooting that gun permanently, unless you can do something to mitigate the recoil.

Getting a headache after prolonged firing of guns is more likely a tension headache and similar to a whiplash injury. This one can mitigate by building up strength and improved technique.

The first will not be significantly affected by hydration, etc. It's killing brain cells.

As for the second, proper conditioning, strengthening, and hydration will mitigate the headache to some extent.

As to Alf's comment, any item that places pressure on the body will do some level of cellular damage. Damage will cause swelling which can cause neurologic changes as well as enzyme markers, etc. and its hardly specific to firearms, heck you see these changes in people doing prolonged exercise of any sort. No one is immune to it, but the tolerance levels vary considerably- a NFL running back can jog for hours and would show less changes than I would running 1 block (I am not in very good shape) but I can shoot a couple hundred rounds of shotshells (a moderately intense recoil) without any "hangover" effect due to the fact that I do this regularly, and my body is conditioned to it.

As someone else said, if it hurts, stop doing it.

Yep, the shooter's headache is a mild concussion.
Yes, dehydration might make for lesser shock absorption ability inside the head.
A small decrease in cerebrospinal fluid volume could increase the tugging and impacts on the meninges, the lining and brain supportive tissues inside the skull, and the vascular tissues with sensory nerves that can get inflamed.

I suspect any toughening up with continued shooting just comes from improved technique, which allows less trauma to the gourd.
Ditto any lessening of bruising of shoulder after regular training.
Just lesser trauma to shooter from better technique.
Nothing else makes sense.

If I get too relaxed with a 10.75-pound 500 A2 shooting maximum loads, I might get an electric shock sensation going into my trigger hand.
That is trauma, pounding or stretching, to the nerves in the shoulder (brachial plexus).
If I hang on correctly and bunch up the pectoral and shoulder muscles properly, no shock.

Likewise technique can reduce the concussion inside the gourd.

I have had a couple of mild headaches after shooting 30 or 40 rounds of 500A2 at a whack.
They resolved promptly when I quit shooting and took some Tylenol.

I have also been knocked onto my butt in a boxing class, from a blow to the jaw, while wearing headgear that would make shootaway proud,
and the bite guard mouth piece too.
I saw stars and came to as soon as I sat down, but I was a bit confused and had a slight headache for a few minutes ...

At the risk of boring those who have hread this before, I have my own theory on learning to shoot a heavy recoiling rifle. The one I am most familiar with is my wildcat .505 SRE, which propels a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps, the same as a .500 NE. My rifle weighs 8.75 pounds, and I have killed three bull elephant, five Cape buffalo and a black rhino with it. It develops about 100 ft/lbs of recoil energy and about 26 fps recoil velocity.

I developed the load for this rifle using my own primitive version of a "lead sled", adding 25 pounds to the weight of the rifle shooting off the bench. Once I had developed the load, I fired it a few times from the shoulder to satisfy myself that it was bearable, and then fired nothing but reduced lead bullet loads for all my practice rounds. I fired a great many of them, none of which ever caused a headache.

When I arrived in Africa, I fired a few full bore loads to satisfy myself that the rifle was sighted in as I wanted it, and from then on, fired only at game. Firing at game, I never noticed the recoil, even firing four shots in rapid succession, as fast as I could manipulate the bolt. My explanation for this phenomenon is that shooting at game, especially dangerous game, removes all thoughts of recoil from my mind. My body is not tensed against the recoil and absorbs the recoil, instead of having it give me a backward shove.

I once shot an elephant while I was perched on top of a termite mound, and got off two quick shots without losing my balance. Another time, I was standing on a raised rock ledge about four inches wide with my gunbearer standing behind me in case I lost my balance. I fired four shots as fast as I could operate the bolt and aim, and maintained my equilibrium throughout.

I see no reason to punish myself by firing full power loads in practice, because I know that my body reacts completely differently in practice than while shooting at game. Others seem to enjoy punishing themselves by repeatedly subjecting themselves to heavy recoil, but I have nothing to prove and am happy to avoid the potential headaches while making myself thoroughly familiar with my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Like hell a gun is going to hurt me / or perhaps you can teach yourself to take recoil ?

Yes like thinking shooting does not effect your hearing. Nothing like a hearing test to show you up on that one


I will make a statement: If a gun has the potential of bruising a shoulder when shot it is doing damage to the shooter , whether the shooters wants to admit it or not. Stock design etc may change felt recoil but the recoil energy does not simply vanish into thin air, it is still there but the impulse is altered.

There are 3 physical aspects of recoil that produce injury. 1. Recoil energy . 2 recoil velocity and lastly 3. Recoil impulse. What is not clear is which of the 3 parameters is the most accurate measure of injury potential.

The guidelines for firearms safety in the US military limit how many rounds may be shot in a session per day by servicemen in training dependent on the firearm used. This determined by study into the effects of firing recoil producing weapons on individuals.

Objective measurement data done by standardized experiment on US servicemen show that recoil from standard issue combat rifles and shoulder fired arms do measurable damage to the shooter.

Muscle enzymes and muscle injury markers are raised after shooting weapons, MRI studies show internal damage and nerve performance studies (EMG) on hand and arm function show transient nerve damage.

Accuracy and performance drops off. What is something of a concern is that objective changes in brain function also appear such as changes in Eye movement and CNS performance.

What is unclear is what the threshold is for these findings to go from transient to permanent.

So whilst some here may claim they are bulletproof to recoil the objective data show the contrary.

excellent post

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootaway uses his shooting helmet wood screwed to the stock of his gun to avoid this problem! -Rob

hahahaha

I started getting gun headaches after I got whiplash and clobbered a couple times falling timber. Before then I could shoot my 500 A-Square 30 times or more without too much detrimental effect. After, only a few shots would have me throwing up and unable to do much but lie down. After several years the sickening effect diminished.
A good friend that has shot that 500 several times got a 460 Weatherby a few years ago.
His words to me were Holy Cow. He said the recoil was the most brutal thing he had ever experienced. He said the recoil was so much worse than the 500 that it wasn't even in the same arena. I don't have a medical answer but I know that gun headaches happen.
I too have heard about how bad the 378 is and it has kept me from building one.

I think the science on this repeated "injury" is pretty clear and others have done a good job of talking about it. I have gotten a 458 with 500 grain headache in my light Whitworth a time or two. I have also over the years developed a "recoil quiver" in my right shoulder. The actual damage to the nerves has probably been produced due to more than one thing, but recoil is what sets it off predictably. It takes different amount of rounds on different rifles to induce it, but it comes with repeated shooting always when the limit is reached. A Recoil shield pad ameliorates it nicely.
Best regards,

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootaway uses his shooting helmet wood screwed to the stock of his gun to avoid this problem! -Rob

hahahaha

Those who are immune to recoil are so because they have no brain!

I am absolutely certain my headaches from that rifle came because of the stock hitting me in the face.

It is like going a round with Mohamed Ali!

Saeed,

This is my 8.75 pound .505 SRE described above. As you can see, the stock has negative drop at the heel, which prevents the kind of slap in the face you describe.

I've occasionally had them...always felt like it had to do with the pressure wave, although that's probably not the case.

Has anyone tried to relieve the problem by getting chiropractic adjustment ?

You all must be right! My head really aches whenever I am forced to listen to Obama. Right afterwards the urge to throw-up occurs . Now that's a real Big Bore! -Rob

The good doctor (RIP) has explained it so well, as always.

I get head aches when shooting in 3 circumstances

First is dehydration - (read a few rounds of Scotch the previous night ) Shooting a reasonable recoiling caliber like even my 9.3X62 can give me a headache after 10 rounds.

Second is a big bore like my 416 Rigby with full power loads. This can give a head ache after 20 or 30 rounds - not all the time but some times - shooting off sticks.

Finally - poor stock fit or too light a gun. I got a beating when shooting Sam's 470 Chapuis which just did not fit me at all. Another example was my SKB 100 sxs using 1 3/8 oz load for a clay practice shoot at the club - after 50 rounds in about 3 hours my head was about to explode. I might have had a few drinks the previous night too

Whenever I am going to be shooting a lot of shots from a hard kicker, I try to take a couple of aspirin 30 minutes to an hour before I shoot.

Then when I am done, I will take a couple of more asprin on the way home from the range.

It seems to eliminate headaches and other "aches" as well.

I alway got a headache from shooting my 416 Rigby' a Ruger RSM. I'm convinced it is from whip lash. The human head is quite heavy, about 16 pounds I think. I'm 150 pounds dripping wet. So your upper body is shoved back with great force while your head tends to remain stationary. I have a beard so my face is slick on the stock, enhancing the effect. When you are clean shaven your face and head tend to stick to the stock (cheek weld) and accelerate with the stock and your upper body.

A bystander one day at the range said it looked like I was being punched by a prize fighter. We then went down range 100 yards and inspected a 5/8 inch 5 shot group shot by the Ruger. He said that should have been impossible after watching the pounding I received.

Regarding your words below, which I made bold and red,
So you DON'T weld your cheek to your stock sir

D R HUNTER

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

This is my 8.75 pound .505 SRE described above. As you can see, THE STOCK HAS NEGATIVE DROP AT THE HEEL , which prevents the kind of slap in the face you describe.

The idea of a negative drop is that the stock pulls away from the cheek as the gun moves backwards in recoil. The principle is the same as the design of the montecarlo cheekpiece. A person can still have a solid cheekweld.

Another principle that reduces cheekslap and face crunch is keeping the head a little more vertical while aiming. This takes place naturally when a scope is used on the CZ 'hogback' Euro-style stocks. I've found the CZ's to be very comfortable to shoot although I was a little apprehensive of the hogback before I tried them a few years ago. I like the hogbacks.

I too prefer a more head upright position when shooting a large caliber rifle. And stock shape has a lot to do with perceived recoil. The Marlin Guide Gun I had was much less comfortable to shoot with full power loads than any of my 416 s or most of my 458 s.
My Lott improved alot after I took some wood off the cheek and the wrist where the thumb muscle rests. Holding the rifle firm enough to shoot and control it. The thumb muscle on my trigger hand would automatically can't the cheek into my cheek which in turn was pressed pretty hard onto the stock to line up the express sights. Getting the offending wood out of the way made the rifle much nicer to shoot. . Same with my 500 A-Square.
It would be interesting to interview The Champions to see if they had a gun headache after a bout with The T Rex??

Both my 9.3×62 and 300 Win Mag CZ 550 s had HogBack stocks and they both slapped the sπ|£ out of my cheek. I changed the pitch of the butt and that helped but neither was a lot of fun to shoot even offhand for 20 rounds. Compared to my Lott that had the American style stock after I took a belt sander and Dremil tool to it. I shot it about 40 rounds one session, mostly 400 gr bullets at over 2400 fps and it was still fun when I was done shooting. . No sore cheek. A little gun headache but not bad. . None of the 3 of those had muzzle brakes on them.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Whenever I am going to be shooting a lot of shots from a hard kicker, I try to take a couple of aspirin 30 minutes to an hour before I shoot.

Then when I am done, I will take a couple of more asprin on the way home from the range.

It seems to eliminate headaches and other "aches" as well.

If the post-big-bore-shoot headache is from a concussion, a.k.a. brain bruise, which I doubt, aspirin may not be the way to go. Aspirin knocks out platelet function and, all by itself with no trauma, in a certain number of people will cause a brain bleed.

Tylenol might be a better choice.

The only gun to give me an instant headache was a Browning BPS 10 gauge with a Tupperware stock and full power Turkey loads. I was patterning it for a buddy. I told him it shot great, go for it.