Last year we had long-running discussions about .404s and their bore diameters, along with a host of other .404 topics.

I've owned my C&H .404 for all of 35 years, but never bothered to slug the barrel to determine its diameter. The AR discussions led me to do that, and I found that mine is one of the tight-bore jobs....418". All those years, I'd been shooting .423" jacketed bullets and .424" cast, with NO PROBLEMS, getting the expected velocities and pressures for whatever load I was using.

The difference from a .416" bullet to my .418" bore is a measly two-one-thousandths of an inch, and it seemed worthwhile to try some .416s in my C&H. I loaded ten rounds (in reformed .375 Ultra brass) with .423" 400-grain X-bullets, and another ten with .416" 400-grain X-bullets. Powder charge was 70.0/H4895, which experience has told me runs very close to factory velocity, or 2125 fps in my 21"-barreled rifle.

I fired the rounds from only 50 yards, due to range problems. The .423" bullets left at an average of 2133 fps, and extreme velocity spread was only 26 fps over the ten-round sample.

The .416 bullets averaged 2137 fps, which tells me they were getting a pretty decent bore seal, compared to the .423 bullets. The extreme spread was a good bit larger, at 127 fps.

I fired each of the ten-round samples into two five-shot groups, and (with a Weaver K1.5/post reticle) all four groups were very similar, at around 1.5".

If I was going to fire hundreds of such undersize bullets, I might worry about increasing barrel erosion via gas blow-by, even though the near-identical speeds would imply that the gas is definitely doing its work as it should, BEHIND the bullet.

However, given the limited number of rounds such rifles normally fire, and the fact that 99% of my shooting is with cast bullets, I believe that my findings with the TIGHT-bored .404 indicate that one could indeed use .416 bullets without much worry. .416-diameter bullets are far, far easier to find than .423s.

To load the .416s in .404 brass, I simply sized the casenecks in a .416 Rigby sizer after sizing the cases in a .404 sizer die. Works great, and neck tension is ample, as one would expect.

Bren, have you tried a "softer" bullet like a Woodleigh or Hornady? I would bet the results would be equal or better.

Howdy, Fred.

No, I haven't tried any others in this role. I was fortunate that I had a perfect direct comparison, with virtually identical bullets in both diameters. Barnes has apparently discontinued the X-bullet in .423" diameter.

As a "pure" experiment, I couldn't have asked for more direct comparison between bullets. You could well be right in saying a softer bullet might do even better. I may just try that, now that I know the concept works at least reasonably well.

A .423 caliber 400 grain Barnes TSX and "banded solid" are slated to begin productiion sometime in 2006.

That would be for folks with .423 groove diameter rifles.

RIP,

I have a box of the .423 Banded solids. Barnes was selling them at the SCI Show in Reno. The .423 TSX's should be here very soon.

Tim

A Tim, you'll have to let me buy a few off you to try. I have 1/2 a box of the old solids & know where I can get another full box.

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
RIP,

I have a box of the .423 Banded solids. Barnes was selling them at the SCI Show in Reno. The .423 TSX's should be here very soon.

Tim

I also obtained a box of Barnes banded solids (400 grains) in .423, picked up by a friend in Reno. I haven't tried any loadings yet as I just got them a couple of weeks ago, but if anyone has any suggestions for loads using VihtaVuori powders (probably N160 would be my guess of at least one appropriate powder) I would love to hear of your experiences.

I am not surprised at your acceptable results wiuth the undersize bullets, and agree with others' comments that lead core bullets might obviate any potential gas-cutting problems because they would tend to swage up to fill the bore.

I have had similar results when using .308" bullets in the 7.62X39mm, the 7.62X54R, the 7.65X53mm Belgian Mauser, the 7.7X58mm JAP, and the .303 British.

(One hears a lot about the idea that the first 8X57mm German infantry rounds designed for the GEW 1888 used .318" bullets (TRUE!!), and it is almost universally assumed that these bullets were therefore shot from barrels with a .318" groove diameter. While many non-military 8X57mm rifles did in fact have .318" groove diameter bores, the military ones did not! The original bore size in the GEW 1888 miltary weapons ran from .321" to .323". It was common practice in Europe in the early days of smokeless powder to shoot what we would call undersize bullets. Thus, then the German Army adopted the .323" "S" bullets in 1905, they merely started shooting groove-diameter bullets in rifles which already had .321"-.323" grooves. The only modification they made to GEW 88's to use this new ammunition was to enlarge the chamber neck diameter the amount needed for the new "S" ammo to freely release the bullet on firing! G 88's so modified had a big "S" stamped on the receiver. However, the GROOVE diameter of these rifles was left the same as it had been all along.)

Hey Wink, next time I get to the range w/ my .404j I plan on running some vel. tests w/ VV160 & 380grNF. I'll post the results.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
A Tim, you'll have to let me buy a few off you to try. I have 1/2 a box of the old solids & know where I can get another full box.

Fred, just let me know how many you need and I will get them down to you. No charge, provided you let me know what kind of results you get. I figure that I will try a few test loads myself. If they work well, I can always order more.

Tim

P.S. MidwayUSA has two (2) boxes left at $51.99 each (the Dealer price is $45.99)

Ah Tim, you are good man. 6-9 would be grand. I think your rifle is about done, we should take some time & go "plinking".