I recently bought my second CZ (well worked over) in 416 Rigby. The seller was kind enough to throw in two nearly full boxes of Barnes 350 grain TSX bullets. I am looking for an accurate and moderate load; input would be appreciated.

Same question for the North Fork 370-grain Soft Nose & FN Solids.

Many thanks,

LD

Bro'Dart:

For moderate load with 350 to 370-grainers (TSX or North Fork of any type), try H4831 charge of 95 to 105 grains.
For higher top-end velocity try 90 to 100 grains of H4350.
100 grains charge will be about 2700 fps with 350-grainers, etc.

If I wanted to pick one load most likely to be accurate and about 2500 to 2600 fps in your CZ 25-inch-barreled rifle,
with 350-grain TSX or 370-grain North fork:

105 grains of H4831 with F-215 primer.
John Buhmiller and Jack o'Connor used that powder charge with 400 to 410-grainers.
I tried it with many different 380 to 410 grainers, and every load tried was accurate, and velocity was 2450 to just over 2500 fps with the heavier bullets.

Here is some Barnes data for the 350-grain TSX in .416 Rigby:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/416RigbyWeb.pdf
24" barrel

H4831SC
96.0 gr >>> 2389 fps
104.0 gr >>> 2580 fps (100% load density)

IMR 4350
88.0 gr >>> 2366 fps
96.0 gr >>> 2585 fps (96 % load density)

Bullet Weight: 350 gr Case Trim Length: 2.890" S.D. 0.289
Bullet Style: TSX FB Primer: Fed GM215M B.C. 0.345
COAL: 3 635" Barrel Length: 24"
.416 Rigby
*Recommend crimping case mouth into the front cannelure groove.
Minimum Maximum
COAL: 3.635" Barrel Length: 24"
Case: Norma Twist Rate: 1:12"

My CZ likes 102 grains H4831SC or 95 grains IMR 4831 with Federal magnum rifle primer.

The 416 Rigby is underloaded. With a 24" barrel and 350 gr bullets, 2850 fps is possible with safe pressures. With 400 gr bullets, 2700 fps is possible; with 450 gr bullets, 2570 fps is possible.

Not what was requested.

Depends upon what one considers "moderate". QL indicates that the 416 Rigby has ~93% of the case capacity of the 416 Weatherby - the ballistics should be a little less, but very similar. I assume the Rigby has been loaded down, because of it's use in double rifles. But, with a strong bolt-action rifle, why not take advantage of its potential - that is, if you can handle it.

My moderate load for the .416 Rigby has been the 350 gr Barnes X propelled by 98 gr IMR 4350. Out of a CZ Safari Mag it gave me 2700 fps.

Kills Cape Buffalo nicely and the recoil isn't bad. Is pretty loud though ...

Moderate means moderate,

Bullets for the Rigby are designed for optimum function at 2,300 to 2,500 fps. If you run some soft points faster than that, you get over expansion, under penetration, and a lot of ruined meat.

The weakest link in the rifle, ammo, shooter chain is me. I can shoot moderate loads (though not from the bench) for a couple hours. I cannot hit anything with fast, high performance, case full to capacity, expressly express, express train, mucho mojo, mightily macho, moderately excessive or even moderately fast loads.

My "gp to" loads have always been 96 to 98 grains of the older H-4831. I may bump that up a touch. For sales, I will keep my "Tropical" loads at 2,370 fps, and use a bit of foam. The CZ sights regulate nicely at that velocity (or lack there of).

Many thanks to all who responded.

I am getting a Kevlar stock, Ron. That plus some Cerakote will set old meat in the pot up for any climate, anywhere on earth.

L/D

Certainly, one does not want to shoot beyond what you can shoot accurately - a miss with a bullet traveling light speed will kill nothing, except something you didn't want to kill.

There are many .416 bullets that will handle high velocity, including Northfork, Barnes TSX, CEB, TBBC, Nosler partition, FMJ solids, monolithic solids, etc.

Bro'Dart,

The CZ Kevlar stock is definitely the way to go.
A nice additional touch is to add one of these Brockman forend-tip sling bases, and a flush-fitted (Rusty McGee) filler screw to the empty hole:





For full glass bedding, to free-float or not to free-float, that is the question.

Shoot first with self-bedding of the rifle into the aluminum bedding block. The stock can certainly handle that.
But older and newer rifles do not all fit exactly the same in the stock.

I had a newer one shoot 0.75 MOA 3-shot groups, just as a drop-in. That was a .416 Rigby.

An older CZ 550 Magnum action example was a 1990's AHR H&H-bolt-faced action barreled to .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012.
It required full glass bedding of action and barrel channel.

Bro'Dart,
Will you be using the Tipped-TSX Boat Tail to preserve that "moderate" velocity down range?

Barnes .416/350-grain TTSX BT:

Barnes .416/350-grain TSX FB:

We have found 102.5 grains of R-17 with 350 grain TSX to be accurate in CZ 416 Rigbys.

The velocity produced is 2825fps, which is under the 416 Weatherby specs. The TSX performs well, though we have 'blown petals' on insurance shots with buffalo. One may load this bullet down to 2600fps in the Rigby but doing so turns it into a 416 Ruger or 416 Rem. That would be like loading a 330WinMag down to 30-06//308 levels. It's doable, but why burn extra powder unless wanting extra performance? For lower powder levels I would call Hodgdon and ask about special loads with H4895.

I don't understand the comment earlier in the thread that the Rigby is 93% capacity of the 416 Weatherby. Other sources figure the Rigby at 96-97% capacity. In general the Rigby uses about 4 grains less powder than the Weatherby out of the 130-ish capacities.

416Tanzan,
Lots of people see the purpose of "Managed Recoil" ammunition, like the Remington line of ammo:

http://www.remington.com/produ.../managed-recoil.aspx

Here are the offerings, including a 300 RUM load that shoots like a 30-06, and a 30-06 load that shoots like a 30-30:

http://www.remington.com/produ.../managed-recoil.aspx

Actually Rusty McGee (member roughone) was working as a Remington R&D engineer when he noticed a fellow engineer assigned that "managed recoil ammunition" project was having a fit trying to get it to work.
Apparently Rusty's off the cuff remark to him was "Why don't you try some AA-5744?" was all it took to perfect the product.

Yep, just a partial load of the fast burning 5744 that requires No Filler was all it took. And Rusty did not even get a T-shirt for that one.

That makes me wonder about using 5744 for the .416 Rigby with 350-grainers to manage the recoil.

Also that speed of powder with a full-case load might be the cat's meow for the already-managed recoil for that gentle giant, the 400 Whelen, with light bullets.
I don't have QuickLOAD at hand at the moment ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
We have found 102.5 grains of R-17 with 350 grain TSX to be accurate in CZ 416 Rigbys.

The velocity produced is 2825fps, which is under the 416 Weatherby specs. The TSX performs well, though we have 'blown petals' on insurance shots with buffalo. One may load this bullet down to 2600fps in the Rigby but doing so turns it into a 416 Ruger or 416 Rem. That would be like loading a 330WinMag down to 30-06//308 levels. It's doable, but why burn extra powder unless wanting extra performance? For lower powder levels I would call Hodgdon and ask about special loads with H4895.

I don't understand the comment earlier in the thread that the Rigby is 93% capacity of the 416 Weatherby. Other sources figure the Rigby at 96-97% capacity. In general the Rigby uses about 4 grains less powder than the Weatherby out of the 130-ish capacities.

Agree - why not load the 416 Rigby to it's potential. The ~93% comes from data provided by QL (QuickLoad), which lists the Rigby at 127 grs of H2O and the Weatherby at 137 grs. In any event, my point is that the ballistics of the two should be very similar. Why have such a magnum and then load it to level of a 416 Ruger is unclear to me? - but to each his own. AIU

quote:

O- but to each his own. AIU

Finally.

Interesting on Quickload. AmmoGuide lists 122.2 for the 416Rigby and 125.9 for the Weatherby. I've also seen the Rigby rated at 128 and the Weatherby at 132 and 136. While it is true that the Weatherby has a straighter-walled case, it is not a 10 grain difference. they are much closer.

The only problem with these discrepancies is that it makes things difficult for extrapolating loads between the Rigby and Weatherby at approximately equal pressures. If one knows the difference, say 4 grains, then one can expect approximately 4 grain differences in loads for a given powder and level.

416T, you must have a fired Rigby case - what do you measure the H2O content as? Maybe you have a fired 416 Weatherby case. AIU

Sorry, I'm a day's flight away from my 416s, and I don't have a Weatherby case at the moment.

quote:

Bro'Dart,
Will you be using the Tipped-TSX Boat Tail to preserve that "moderate" velocity down range?

The rifle came with the good 'ole open tips, so I will shoot those up. I will most likely sell ammunition with the "high speed, low drag" appearance of the Tipped TSX blivets. I like that kevlar treatment. As far as bedding style goes, "give the lady/rifle what she wants"!

I still have a pound of Devcon titanium putty. I can always add to it, but taking away ain't easy!

Idaho Sharpshooter wants to buy my older CZ 416, but my wife has put here foot down hard on that idea. She loves that rifle, and said, "IT STAYS HERE!". Sorry Rich.

quote:

That makes me wonder about using 5744 for the .416 Rigby with 350-grainers to manage the recoil.

RIP, I have done just that in the past with the 350 grain RCBS cast bullet (with gas check). If the cast bullets were properly heat treated it made for a splendid 2,000 fps 45/70 type load. I introduced my spousal unit to the 416 Rigby via that first step. I still find that load to be lots of fun.

416 Tanzan,
Do you recollect the pressure of your RL 17 load?

Thanks for the load information, btw.

'dart

quote:

416 Tanzan,
Do you recollect the pressure of your RL 17 load?

Cases and primers were all ridiculously normal, even when tested in noon African sun.

I use the both the barnes TSX and solid 350gr in my CZ 416. I load 102 grains of H4831 and the load is manageable and accurate. I have used the load to take a buffalo and tuskless cow.

lawndart,
I have had excellent results with that bullet
at 2350-2400 fps at anywhere under 250 yds.
using 93 grains of H4831SC with a Fed 215mag primer. Sighted at 100yds, drop at 250 is only
about 3 inches. Unless you are shooting a longer range, you don't need the extra speed IMHO. The tipped 350 Barnes works great. Hits like "The Hammer of Thor"
Good shooting,

Tetonka
Dakota 76 --- 416 Rigby
T/C Encore -- 416 Rigby

I have for years loaded the 370 NF with 105 grains of H4831 in my Ruger. If my memory is correct, it goes 2530 fps, and always goes under 1 MOA.

quote:

Cases and primers were all ridiculously normal, even when tested in noon African sun.

He,he, good quote.
I want to thank 416 Tanzan, Hutty, tetonka, jstevens, and all the rest for taking the time to reply. The loads all sound well tailored to the stated purposes.

Now I need to shake down kids at the playground for their lunch money so I can buy a #1 in the same perfect chambering. I will post results in a few weeks.

L/D

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Interesting on Quickload. AmmoGuide lists 122.2 for the 416Rigby and 125.9 for the Weatherby. I've also seen the Rigby rated at 128 and the Weatherby at 132 and 136. While it is true that the Weatherby has a straighter-walled case, it is not a 10 grain difference. they are much closer.

Tanzan likely you'll get those sort of variances just between different brass manufacturers. I measured 128gns water in the latest hornady brass, unfired. If memory serves earlier norma brass was thicker and less capacity. For whatever reason it sometimes had difficulty getting as near to weatherby power as it should have. The rigby as you say is certainly capable of coming within 50fps of weatherby power with good brass.

Never have owned a .416 Rigby... but the 350 grainers perform like crazy in my .416 Rem. Accurate and just kill.

Moderate and 416 Rigby should be mutually exclusive terms!

Rickster:

416 Rem. instead of 416 Rigby?

Blaser instead of a REAL rifle?

416 Rem in a Blaser?

Why would I expect less from a closet queen. Admit it, you liked it when you shot the Blaser.

I was loading for my new CZ 416 Rigby the other day. I loaded 400 gr Barnes banded solids and 350 gr TSX.

The solids were first time for me &I wanted to crimp at the top groove - ahead of the second band. the OAL was 3.650 inches - 0.10 inch less than max spec. there is plenty of space available in the magazine.

Then I did the 350 gr TSX. Since this is more pointed bullet I thought I'd set it forward a bit & crimp into the second groove. I seated the bullet and tested in the magazine and found that it was fine. OAL was around 3.740 inches. Then I chambered the round with the bolt and found a bit of resistance. When I ejected the round, I found that the bullet had been pushed in about 0.050 inch. So I had to seat a bit further in and crimp on the 1st groove just like the solid.

Why would CZ make their rifles short throated when the magazine is for the spec length of 3.750 inches?

I see no real practical issue but just curious.

The standard throat for the Rigby was with zero parallel free-bore and a .300" leade, where the 16.5" twist would continue to the muzzle.

I do not understand the difference between free bore & leade.

After posting above I kept thinking about the issue and I suddenly got a chill up my spine. Had I made sure that the banded solid was seated adequately off the lands?!!!

I then cycled a full magazine through the rifle and then opened and shut the bolt on a round a few times to see if I found a shiny spot on the bullet. Sure enough there were 3 spots on each bullet that I cycled in this manner.

I find this strange that CZ would make a rifle with such a shot throat / leade!!The bullets were already crimped on the to groove. So I just screwed down the seater plug on the bullet & it actually moved down to the bottom of the to band! Now the OAL for the Banded solid is 3.615!

I am glad I picked this up before firing the load / rifle.

Same thing on my CZ and RHINO monometals, Naki. The ogive on those solids made it so I had to seat to the last band and use a different powder. Fortunately IMR 4831 instead of H4831 yielded similar performance as with softs and Sledgehammers. (These were 400-grainers.)

A CZ thing? Freebore and leade are the same thing as I read it, BTW.

Yes I just checked the web & the Hornady site http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/internal

"The section ahead of a rifle's chamber just before the rifling starts (above) is called the "leade," throat, or "freebore" and is really the bore of the barrel with the rifling reamed away. As our bottom three illustrations show,..."

However the "throat" might be the first part of rifling that has shallower grooves / shorter lands.

I have a question - does anyone use a filler when loading the 416 Rigby to ensure that the powder is held firm?

I was looking at Sam's 577 thread & wondered if the DR practice could be applied for the Rigby case.

I am using AR 2209 - which is the same as H4350 - made in Australia. There is plenty of space under the bullets.

Just wondering ....

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I do not understand the difference between free bore & leade.

After posting above I kept thinking about the issue and I suddenly got a chill up my spine. Had I made sure that the banded solid was seated adequately off the lands?!!!

I then cycled a full magazine through the rifle and then opened and shut the bolt on a round a few times to see if I found a shiny spot on the bullet. Sure enough there were 3 spots on each bullet that I cycled in this manner.

I find this strange that CZ would make a rifle with such a shot throat / leade!!The bullets were already crimped on the to groove. So I just screwed down the seater plug on the bullet & it actually moved down to the bottom of the to band! Now the OAL for the Banded solid is 3.615!

I am glad I picked this up before firing the load / rifle.

There are two parts to the throat area of a bore. The first part is the parallel free bore, normally .001"+ larger diameter than the bullet diameter. Then at some point, the end of the parallel free bore, a slow taper begins where the riflings gradually assume their full height/depth. The taper is often 1* to 3* degrees. Many big bore rifles will use a free-bore that is 1/2 to 1 calibre size.

On 'three bright spots' I wonder how many lands your barrel has? If it has six or eight then I would expect 6 to 8 bright spots on close inspection. Otherwise, you may simply be smashing your round into one side of the bore with a vigorous bolt cycle.

Thanks Tanzan.

I first tried the bullet seated out a bit & this resulted in the bullet being pushed into the case. So I know that the bullet was engaging the lands. I also wondered why I was not getting 6 shiny spots.

It is difficult to talk throats and free-bore unless one agrees on a convention for terminology.

Free-bore may be ambiguous unless one distinguishes "parallel-sided free-bore" which is a fixed entity, a design spec of the reamer, and must be specified by a diameter and a length,
versus "effective free-bore length" which is the variable distance various bullets may travel from start out of the case mouth until contacting the rifling.
The latter depends on bullet ogive and bullet diameter, length of brass cartridge case, and all parts of the throat.

Throat includes parallel-sided free-bore length and diameter, leade angle specification, the case mouth chamfer in the chamber (45-degree standard), and the plus tolerance of chamber minimum length over cartridge maximum brass length.

Here is a drawing with all of those aspects visible, though not drawn to scale on the various lengths shown and labeled:



The CIP specification for the .416 Rigby has a throat consisting only of leade and case mouth chamfer of chamber,
no parallel-sided free-bore at all.
To nearest .001":
Bullet diameter = 0.416"
Start of leade (diameter) = 0.417"
Bore/land diameter = 0.408"
Groove diameter = 0.416"
Length of leade from start to bore diameter = 0.300"
Leade angle = 0 degrees 54' 36"
Length of the chamfer from end of case mouth of chamber to start of the leade = 0.015"

This is a very tight throat of very short effective free-bore, and zero parallel-sided free-bore.
Not at all Weatherby-esque.

My Ruger RSM has such a throat, and it would not even chamber the old Swift A-Frame when it was seated and crimped on cannelure, but the bullet ogive was subsequently changed,
it now works through my Ruger RSM as well.
That tight CIP throat does not hurt accuracy at all.

I don't have any other .416 Rigby rifles on hand to check,
because they have all been rebarreled with WILDCAT barrels.


CLASSIC WILDCATS RELOADED
Not just a rip-off. Certified by R.I.P.

RIP, nice explanation. Thanks. AIU

AIU,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Here is the .416 Rigby throat:



In this "leade-only" throat,
if brass is max length of 2.900", and bullet is .416" diameter at the case mouth and ogive tapers forward from there,
the bullet can move
0.067" + 0.012" + 0.015" = 0.094"
out of the case mouth until it starts to encounter the beginnings of rifling at 0.416" groove diameter.

Trim the brass to 2.890" length and the bullet can jump forward 0.104" before it begins to encounter the rifling.

WILDCATS RELOADED
Certifying Body: R.I.P.