A positive discussion question.

What is the best big bore for dangerous game?

Please consider the following:
- adequate calibre/frontal area
- adequate penetration
- effect of recoil on the ability to fire a second shot
- any other factors.

The third point is very relevant in my opinion as even the best shot can miss the brain in a stressful situation and a second shot be called for.

So I would argue the biggest and most powerful is NOT the answer. This is proven dozens of times with Saeed's 577 Tyranosaur videos and almost everyone (all?) not being ready or able to take a second shot after the shock of firing the rifle.

Please comment.

I think the best bigbore for dangerous game is a double rifle of 450 to 475 Nitro. This type and power level has been used for many years and not found wanting.
If for personal reasons a person "needs" a lighter rifle, or a rifle with less recoil, one of the 450/400's will certainly prove up to the task.
If, because of you eyes, or just personal preference, you can scope your double if necessary.
I realize a scoped double goes against tradition, but as the Europeans [and I with my Chapuis] have discovered, a scope on a double gives you the same advantages as a scope on any other type of rifle.

Yo Nitro, I think this is neat. My suggestion would be any 416 whether Rem or Rigby up to 470. Most people can learn to handle the recoil above a 375 for such stuff if they really and truly want to master the rifle. You have to be a closet masochist at times especially if you're really not up to shooting. Just make up your mind to take the pounding and get it over with. After the 5-10 shots, you really get into it. Oh, by the way, the only thing smaller than my 416 would be a 375 Ultra as it has the capacity to really scoot a bigger bullet along and still keep its flat trajectory.

Proposed Wal Mart double DGR:

2 Marlin 45-70's duct taped together.

Seriously, I consider the .40's marginal for thick thinned stuff. In my opinion, a true dangerous game rifle starts at .45 caliber and is limited only by what you can physically handle. Since dangerous game ought to be shot very close, better make it a double.

Best for me. 500 AHR, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, or 500 A Square. No real difference between any of them.

Best for most hunters I have known. Something in the recoil range of: 375 H&H, 450/400NE, up to the various 416s. Most people I have known have problems shooting the 458s well, they are afraid of the recoil. This is a bad thing for quick shooting.

Scott

Having actually used rifles on dangerous game, I'd have to say the .375H&H works for the cats, and the .470 Capstick works on buff!

George

The "best use" of diameter and recoil IMO is the grand ol 404 jeffery. It does alot of things my 458 lott does and more. In a double I would have to say its the 450, though I am very partial to the 500 3". When you use the 570s in the 500 the recoil is not bad at all, it also has greater penetration.

I wonder if the .500's isn't a dividing line between recoil and power?

Above the .500's the cartridges are certainly not lacking but neiher is recoil.

The .500's and below, the recoil perhaps more manageable?

NitroX,



There is a saying "the customer always gets it right"



So we have 222 and 223, 22/250, 243, 270, 7mm Rem, 308 and 30/06, 300 Win, 338 Win and 375 H&H. That just about took out all of the calibres that people use and all those calibes work well when everything is considered.



So now lets apply that thinking back to Africa at its peak.



Firsty we know that all of these animals are way too big so as to get a 308/pig/roo outcome.



Your point on recoil in my opinion is the key point.



How much recoil can we have before recovery time, problems with the rifle etc. and etc become a player.



The answer is probably the 400 grain 40 calibre at about 2100 f/s..........375 recoil.



I know that it is often said that the 404 Jeffery's popularity was due to price, but there has to be more than price. For one thing price is often determined by how many users.



So my vote would be a 416 Remington loaded back some. Perhaps that is what the 400 H&H is about.



Mike

I have 2 big bores a 450 Ackley and a 500 A2. I have shot the 450 hundreds of times but the 500 is fairly new and I haven't become comfortable with it yet. Therefore now the recovery time with the 500 is much slower which to me should be very important in hunting situations. I do believe the 500 recoil is not that much greater that I can't master it with practise.

To me the best big bore is the largest a person can handle with EASE and almost second nature.

Mike

Nitro,

One other issue I would add to the equation.

I suspect that the 404 Jeffery area was in fact like the 308 and the 470 to 500 was like 300 magnums, that is, lost of extra pizzaz and for the guns/ammo enthusiasts.

So two answers from my point of view

400 grain 40 cal at 2100 or so

500 to 600 grain 470-500 at 2100 or so.

Mike

The two biggest rifles I have in Alaska are 338 Win Mag and a Win 71 in 450 Alaskan and a Ithaca 37-12 Ga Slug Gun. Depends on your definition of dangerous game....here it would be the Brown Bear...a 375 HH is popular as well as a 12 Ga pump with Brennek Mag. Slugs.

In Africa the english double guns and the 458 Win....and don't forget the english double bore guns.

For a bolt gun, one of the big .450s pushing a 500 gr. bullet out at 2200-2300 fps. ought to make anyone's short list of "best" big bore cartridges that are true stoppers - not just good killers. And since it appears to be on the edge of standardization in widely-available, moderately-priced factory rifles with factory-loaded ammo now in production, I'd nominate the .458 Lott for the top spot on the list.

AD

Ignoring the older definition of big bore, my inexperienced vote goes to the 416s. Unless we're talking "stoppers" too.

Nitro, yup that would be about right. I tried my hunting partners' dad's 500 NE some time back and you could feel the difference in recoil between the 470 and the 500. It didn't bother me much but it bothered others that tried both the 470 and 500. Some of these guys' necks would snap back and forth while shooting offhand.

This is very easy to answer.

A 375/404 with either Walterhog or Barnes X 300 grain bullets.

After over a 100 buffalos, 10 elephants and 3 lions, there is absolutely nothing that comes even close!

And before anyone takes me to task on this, this is my own choice, and everyone of course is welcome to use whatever they think is best.

Nitrox,
Saeed's 577 is probably not a good example since I think he may have it set up to hurt people
That is with light weight and powerful loads.

A 585 a few pounds heavier with break and just above 577nitro power is no problem to recover from, just heavy to carry.

Karl.

Does this grow weary, or what?

I suspect that the big bore stoppers of long ago were by definition stoppers by their availability and shootability. If everyone could shoot, and carry, a 700 NE, it would be "the" stopper.

Folks like Allen, Saeed, Ray, and a few others, that actually have experience in the field, can give one more faith in their opinions than the wannabes. I think a adequate big bore is a rifle you have confidence in and actually have proof of its effect on big and dangerous game.

My personal opinion is 5000 ft-lbs and 400 grains. But one should form their own opinions.

Of course, there is nothing like lack of experience for recommending a dangerous game rifle.

I have to agree with Bill Stewart, the wannabes are doing a lot of projecting and some of it may be right and some wrong. I am from the old school, I guess. I say get what is reasonable and you can handle. There is a lot of hair splitting going on. I started the DG busines in '72, before some of you were born, I am sure. I am a double man, but have used bolts on ocassion. I have used .375, .404,. 416 Rigby, .450x3.25, .450 #2, .475 #2, .475x3.25, .500's,.577x100x750 and .600's x 110x900 grains. There is differences in effectiveness. It breaks at .40, 450, .500, .577 and .600. Check them out. Stay away from high velocity and high pressure. Hit where you need to hit and dead is dead. I was using doubles and loading for them when you could buy a darn good one with kickers for less than 1000$.
No brag, just the facts.

Leroy
Anyway, the wannabes make for entertaining reading, sometimes.

"Most people can learn to handle the recoil above a 375 for such stuff if they really and truly want to master the rifle"



Very true statement. It took me just one box to get use to the recoil of my .378 weatherby.

Bill,

Who do you suppose are wannabes?

I remember when many doubles, and almost all the big bore bolt guns (505 Gibbs, 500 Jeff), could be had cheap! The main reason was no brass, and few if any bullets. Those days are now long past.

I still say, that the majority of hunters, will find the 375 to be their personal maximum, for an effective hunting rifle. There are a few that will be able to master the 416s. Even fewer who will be able to handle a 458s & 475s. A tiny minority who will be able to handle the .510s and up. I base this on first hand experience with other hunters shooting my personal hunting rifles, as well as, the production figures for the various calibers (here I am relying on the "law" of supply and demand).

It takes significant desire, and a substantial outlay of cash, to master a .510 and up caliber rifle. Seriously, you have to WANT to shoot these rifles!

I find it curious that so many here at AR have 50 caliber and larger rifles, but never seem to hunt with them. They seem to hunt with 375s, 416s, and a few with 458s & 475s. If I wasn't going to hunt with my 500 AHR I would not still own it! These are hunting rifles, so why own it if you aren't hunting with it?

For those that haven't had the pleasure of shooting a "big 50" hunting rifle. After I shoot a few rounds through the 500, I don't even notice my 416 Rigby kick! There is a BIG increase in both recoil and "knock down" power between the 500 and the 416. Also, if you are ever in southeastern Michigan on a weekend and want to try out a 500, look me up. I will insist however, that you shoot something a little less potent first, say the 416 Rigby.

For whatever it is worth, I like the 458 Winnie too!

Scott

HI,

MR. SAEED what fps do you load the 300x to. Also do you use the 416 Dakota brass and just put it through the full length die for the 375/404.One more thing do you like the 350 or 400x for the 416 Rigby or something else. Thanks,Kev

Leroy

Great to have you here. We are always looking for new posters with Double Rifle experience. I've also owned and used most of the rifles you have listed. I didn't see the difference between the 577 and the 600 in performance but did notice a substantial difference in recoil.

What difference did you see between the 500NE and the 475#2 in killing power? I don't think that there is much and think the 475#2 is a better choice. Much like the 404 is a better choice than the 416 Rigby.

The 450's seem to me to be the best combo of low recoil and performance. It does take a stiff upper lip to shoot the 500 bolt actions repetitively. I'm glad Scott is so proficient at it.

Will



I raised this discussion to drag these forums away from the other type of threads onto something more positive.



Instead of criticism maybe something positive from you would be appreciated. Otherwise just go back to reading the other type of thread again. Raise one of your own threads from your experience for us to enjoy. Hey whatever you enjoy.



You don't have to shoot a .577 NE at an elephant to work out what the recovery time is compared to a .450 NE, do you mate?



More so the new "magnum" velocity super-bores which just kick the projectiles out that bit faster for no real gain. Does pulling a 650 gr bullet out an extra 400 fps achieve anyhting except recoil?



I'll come back to the "wannabe" tag in twenty years time and see how we compare .



PS Will mate, you have to go on safari again and work out the grumps.

Nitrox,

How do you spell curmudgeon?

I should lighten up, or find something better to do than respond. But then when you're retired, you get desparate, I guess!

Anyway, I have changed my mind, due to your criticism of my most expert opinions and advice.

I firmly believe that the {_____} is the best caliber for any dangerous game under any conditions on any continent, now and forever and ever.

How's that?

Will

It is not just retired hunters that get bored. It is X years until my next safari too.

The "wise old men of Africa" (see the thread I raised elsewhere) are always appreciated except when you bite you may get a bite back . That's the nature of things.

I certainly appreciate your experience (and others on the thread) mixed in the the armchair ravings of many of us, and complete fabrications of some others.

PS I hope that safari hunting will continue in adequate form so I can try to beat you in twenty years time (or thirty ) . Then I can tell these cheeky younguns to get stuffed too

I go along with the idea that the biggest thing you can handle well is the best. I spent about 5-6 months working up slowly to a .450 Rigby, and I don't claim to be any hero. It knocks buffalo down! This year I'm taking a .404 just for the nostalgia, don'tcherknow. If I manage to swing another DG safari while I'm still merely middle-aged and not down right doddering, it will be with a double .450 NE or something like it. They all work if you shoot them right and have the guts to back you up if you muff it. Class II and Class III DG's are the way to go unless you're just sort of sensitive. If so, fall back to a Class I and make really, really, REALLY sure of your shot. If you can handle a IV, good for you. Again, the biggest thing you can learn to shoot well . . . and most would be surprised at what you can learn to shoot.

Hey Will, I be's a WANNABE, in fact I resemble that remark!!

Beautiful.

What's best is genuinely variable and for a host of good reasons. The best I can do with the question is to first state that, for a high % of visiting hunters, the 416/400 tandem makes good sense. You've got your 5000 foot pounds and a bore size that's a step in the right direction. For the more open-minded, the .458 Winchester Magnum, loaded with today's components, can provide true big bore diameter and increased bullet weight, in a similarly soft shooting tandem. A step futher, and to agree with Allen Day, the .458 Lott, in driving 450 or 500 grain bullets at somewhat less than maximum velocity, is a real possibility for a fair many visiting hunters. Above this threshold, IMHO, the % of those who can do good work drops off, markedly.

Mickey1
In my experience I felt the .500 was a little more effective than the .475#2. That's certainly not scientfic, just observation. I like bullet weight and frontal diameter. .475#2 is lower pressure. I could use either and not complain. Recovery time for a second well aimed shot is slower with the various .500'S, .577's or a .600. However, I never felt I was handicapped, but in old and "gone to lard" as they say, they might be a handicap today.
You are right the average person is better served by the .450#2 or 3.25 case. Rifle is lighter and less recoil.

Leroy

Figuring the power for the dollar, brass longevity
and availability, something average Joe can afford and shoot, ease of reloading, huge bullet choices, etc;
I say the Lott is the best.Ed.