What, can be expected from a 450gr mono solid from a 458 win mag would you be confident for elephant ?

Bear in mind we use Somchem powders and what mono bullets do you suggest I'm thinking around the line of GS custom or does barnes do a flattop solid in 450gr as well ? Obviously the length of the bullet will matter with the amount of powder that can be used.

Maximum speed to be achieved is around 2200fps to keep pressure low.

Thanx in advance.

Frederik

In 458 Win and a 450 solid, either Barnes or GS, at 2200 fps you will have no issues at all with elephant. It will give excellent penetration.

With a 458 Win capacity I always felt that a 450 was the way to go. My friend has a 458 WIn, as do I (several). I always loaded the 450s for mine and his rifle in which he hit two elephants with the Barnes solids. I was hunting with 458 Lott and 500s. The 450s gave more than enough penetration, hit just as hard as the 500s out of the lott. 2200 fps is just about right and really don't need anymore than that to accomplish what you need.

I shoot these days a 458 B&M--about the same capacity as the 458 Win-only it comes in a very small package with an 18 inch barrel. I am able to duplicate 458 Winchester in these guns. Although I have not used it yet on elephant, I will be shooting a 450 Barnes Solid at 2225 fps from the b&m.

Michael

Sounds, good and what I expected now which of the two bullets are the longest the GS or the Barnes ?

Frederik

I am not sure, have never shot any GS bullets, but understand they are jam up and jelly tight good bullets. I have only used the barnes which is 1.380 inches long. I personally never had the need for anything other than the Barnes and the new Barnes Banded FLAT NOSE is the hot ticket in my book!

Michael

I shot my elephant and buffalo with barnes 450 solids. They were around 2300fps. Both animals are dead.
Dean

I took 3 boxes of Barnes flat nosed solids to a PH in Zim last year for his 458 win mag. So I am guessing he thinks they are good as that is the rifle he carries while hunting for buff and ele.

BigB

I have used 450gr North Fork flat nose solids on a bunch of elephants. Velocity was 2190fps for one load and 2220fps for another load developed after North Fork slightly modified their bullet. Neither load approaches a max load with Us or Aussie powders.

Penetration is excellent and plenty sufficient for any elephant.

GS Custom flat nose solids and North Fork flat nose solids are very similar.

JPK

quote:

GS Custom flat nose solids and North Fork flat nose solids are very similar.

JPK

Please this is not a fight over GS but does the North Fork bullets also flatten out ? See picture below.


From their website 3, 458 bullets.

quote:

On the left in the picture are two 458 bullets that were fired into a steel drum filled with wet sand. Speeds were 2700 fps and 2300 fps from a 460 Weatherby rifle. The middle bullet picked up a layer of steel on the nose from the lid of the drum. The right hand bullet is the final production version of the bullet with the driving bands optimised for minimum pressure / maximum speed.

Now I presumme the far left bullet was shot at 2700 fps and since I'm not going to go to 2300 fps I shouldnt get any deformation in the same situation. Please note I say same situation with a drum filled with wet sand. Would a elephant skull or hitting the tusks and skull have more dramatic results ?

I would like to work myself into one good load for the 458 without worrying which bullet to use when since the 458 will be used as a backup rifle 99% of the time. It would be more difficult to get the 450 gr Barnes solid here and much easier to get GS but if the GS bullet is going to deform I would rather use a bullet that would not.

Please this is not a row over GS again anybody have good experience with GS at 2200 fps on elephant ?

My North Fork solids did not deform at 2,550 fps on elephant. Range 9 paces.



Pictured L to RT; 465 grain TCCI that deformed on molars (anything would), TCCI found sticking out of skull after 39 inches penetration, and North Fork after 60 inches penetration.

In my tests, the North Fork always deformed less than the GS, but the GS functioned more reliably in my un-modified CZ550 feed ramp.

Andy

The North Forks generally do not deform. I have recovered them with divots in the nose, but not "across the nose" deformation.

I gotta say that I don't think GS deformation is an issue.

Also gotta say that if you do, you shouldn't use them because confidence is all when that elephant is headed your way.

Barnes are hard bullets, harder the either GS or North Fork, the won't often deform, but they will break.

JPK

JPK

I have shot 1000s of Barnes Solids into some very hard things and have never seen one break. In fact once a friend of mine shot 2 458 450s into an elephant, somehow the second shot thru the first, leaving a perfect hole on one side from the second bullet! That was extreme!

But for real, shot bricks, blocks, concrete, but the one thing they did break up on, and I mean disintegrate on, was a 2 inch piece of hardened steel. They when all to hell on that! But never have I seen one break otherwise. Maybe I just had a good run with them???

Michael

Many thanx to all I will try and get Barnes and GS bullets and try them both out and see what shoots the best out of the rifle. Now we just need to wait for that license to come thru for it.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
JPK

I have shot 1000s of Barnes Solids into some very hard things and have never seen one break. In fact once a friend of mine shot 2 458 450s into an elephant, somehow the second shot thru the first, leaving a perfect hole on one side from the second bullet! That was extreme!

But for real, shot bricks, blocks, concrete, but the one thing they did break up on, and I mean disintegrate on, was a 2 inch piece of hardened steel. They when all to hell on that! But never have I seen one break otherwise. Maybe I just had a good run with them???

Michael

Michael,

I don't have time today, or any time soon, to dig through photos and posts etc, to find the myriad example of broken Barnes solids for you, but they are a plenty.

Not that I am condemning Barnes solids, every bullet has its strengths and its weaknesses.

For example, GS Customs deform, which is "designed in" through material selection by Gerard because of his belief that "predictable deformation is preferable to unpredictable breakage", as he puts it. Deformation surely isn't ideal, eh? But is it better than breakage? Well, Gerard prefers it for his bullets rather than potential breakage. Barnes has the opposite view apparently, and North Fork is in the middle.

Who's right (or probably better put, "Who's right more often?")? I don't know, but I'd hunt with any of the three, or even a good ol' Woodleigh!

Thinking about it, if you want to see photos of broken Barnes, Gerard's web site is probably a good place to start looking.

JPK

JPK

Oh yes-everything can and does fail. If it's man made, and involved with shooting, it can happen! You are correct--"Whos Right More Often". I am just saying that I have not had that happen, and with some of the things I have put them thru I am somewhat surprised myself. I also believe that not all "Barnes" have been created equal in the past, depending on the metal stock at the time?

Currently in my .500s I am using the bullets that JD and I designed and tested so extensively. They are CNC solids, with various different nose profiles, all flat. Made from either a brass type alloy or a copper type alloy, and I certainly can't tell you the exact metallurgy! The copper type is heavier than the brass, so all mine are the copper. I had grave concerns about this deforming and doing strange things, but no matter what I put it thru it comes out with nothing but a scratch. Drives deeper than any solids I have ever worked with and it is not soft at all whatever it is. I am assured that there is no shortage of the material, so I am happy. Currently in the 500 MDM using a 550 gr version at 2200 fps and in the 50 B&M a 510 gr at 2100 fps.

Michael

quote:

I also believe that not all "Barnes" have been created equal in the past, depending on the metal stock at the time?

Hmm, perhaps so...

JPK

There is one thing I meant to comment on, and it is the deformation of any solid bullet. In my opinion any deformation at all I consider not good at all! As far as I am concerned it is a failure waiting to happen and will whether in reduced penetration, or straight line penetration. A solid has to remain a solid.

I went over to the GS site, been there before and it is excellent, but I did not locate the broken barnes solids? I am not doubting your word, like I said, anything can happen. I just have not had it happen with me either in tests or in the field. If I were leaving today for the fields I would have no issues at all with the 458/450 Barnes FN in my 458 B&M or the 458 Winchester. At the risk of other considerations of our past, much the same as you would not have an issue leaving with your RN Woodleighs! But we won't go there, eh?

I never felt or had a need for the NorthFork solids, although always have interests, but I am sure they would do a fine job too. I would want to test the GS bullets at what I consider proper velocities for said work 2100-2300 fps, and if I did not experience any serious deformation at these velocities then I think they would be fine too. Believe me if I would have had 1 Barnes break I would have been at the front of the line and you and I would be discussing ONLY NorthForks--or the ones we CNC for the .500s, end of story, but just has not been the case! We as shooters are living in the best of times with the availability and the capability of having proper designed bullets!

Michael

Michael,

On the Barnes, as I said, examples of broken bullets abound. But that does not damn the Barnes solid, since all bullets have their trade offs. And given the number shot, even a thousand broken bullets does not mean much, and while I have seen photos of many broken Barnes, they don't approach even 100 in number.

Deformation doesn't mean a thing to me, unless it detracts from the bullet's performance, which isn't measured by deformation but only by straight line penetration, each (staight line and depth of penetration) being an important elemment of that performance (obviously speaking solids here.)

And that accounts for my "absolute" faith in Woodleighs, even though a fair proportion of the bullets I have recovered have shown deformation of one sort or another. Ussually tail flattening or slight "banana-ing" where one side is slightly compressed and the other slightly stretched. No nose deformation though, ever. Every one has traveled straight, even when there is evidence of tumbling, and every one has traveled far enough, and some.

North Forks can rivet slightly, much less than the GS, and less frequently, and the nose will occasionally divot. But they have traveled straight with one known which had a nose divot when recovered and showed some curve, but only after 42" - 48" of penetration. One possible complete deflection on striking the zygomatic arch, but who the heck knows for sure.

With the GS's I have no personal experience, but 500 Grains, now a former member of this site, has much, and his extensive experience, and testing (in live and dead elephants he has killed) - he is more of a tester than even I am - only serves to confirm Gerard's theory. Rivet, yes; penetrate extremely well, yes; travel straight, yes. You can read of his tests in his articles published in African Hunter Magazine, his name is Dan McCarthy.

BTW, in his early penetration tests, now a bit dated, the Barnes round nose solids were the very worst performers of all, by far.

So what a bullet looks like when I recover it after extensive straight line penetration, if its still in the elephant and can be found, means little to me, though I understand well that deformation WILL lead to reduced penetration, all other things equal. But they are not equal...

If I were leaving tomorrow to hunt elephants, I would have equal confidence in any of the four solids discussed. My preference for the first shot will remain Woodleigh, because I have never seen nose deformation with them and my first priority is gaining entry to the skull, from whatever angle may be offered. For the second shot, it would be North Fork, because my experience informs me that I can expect the greatest penetration with them, and the second shot is either going to be an insurance shot or a shot where every bit of penetration may be required. But I would still be flly confient with all Barnes or all GS. Even while I know that any one of them might not be the perfect bullet for the shot of deliver the performance they promise on that one shot.

FYI, 465H&H, a fellow with very extensive elephant experience, shares your view regarding deformation - he wants none. But he is a fan of Woodleighs.

JPK

All the more reason to have my own made!

Michael

If they give you confidence you need, definitely go for it.

But they will also have their strengths and weaknesses, just as all other bullets.

JPK

Thanx JPK and Micheal very informative.

Frederik

You are most welcome, both JPK and myself have done quite a bit of work with various solids and although we are at odds many times, we really are closer in our opinions than either of us will admit! Heh! Both being strong willed, and opinionated for sure!

JPK is correct as I stated, especially in the field there are about 1 million variables that can come into play to cause ANY bullet to fail. I have stated the same, will do so again. For your purposes and to do my best to stay on thread, Any of the various 450s will more than do the job in your 458, the Barnes, the Northfork and the GS at 2200-2300 fps. ALL are proven. I do not care for deformation in any SOLID, but I think the GS only deforms at the higher velocities. At extreme velocities (which the 458 Win cannot reach anyway) one puts great stress on any bullet, sometimes truly unneeded stress. For the work a solid is needed for, deep straight line penetration, I am a firm believer in 2000-2250 fps or close to this. I see no need for more than that.

JPK

Just put my order in for an additional 2000 of the various bullets I have been using in the .500s--in particular the 550 gr and 510 gr versions. Very fine bullets indeed. I am still looking for weaknesses, and will continue to do so!

Michael