The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores North Fork vs Swift ; 458Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Gentlemen, I am going to order some 450 gr softs for my 458 Win mag today. I hear real good things about the North Forks especially in the accuracy department. It does not appear there is a great difference in the terminal department between the Swifts and the NF's. Perhaps the NF's do not expand to quite as large a frontal area. Any comments from those that have used both. I realize they are both fine projectiles. The NF's are about twice the price. These will be used in a bolt gun. I have no experience with the NF's. I am just talking lead core bullets. EZ | ||
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Happy New Year EZ, I've used both extensively - though .416 being the largest caliber. In my rifles (Remington, Sako and Weatherby) both are similarly accurate and both have similar terminal effect. Those I have recovered looked about the same - looked like advertizements for the bullet manufacturer - perfect mushrooms. All did their job in exemplary fashion. The picture to the left is a .416 SAF recovered from an elk after a quartering shot that broke the near shoulder, macerated the heart, lungs and paunch and ended up under the skin of the far hip. That has become my experience and expectation of both NF and SAF. I'd say whichever shoots more accurately in your rifle is the pill of choice. Good luck, Paul NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I've used both and like them both. The Swift A-Frame is just plain less costly......and as far as I can tell it's the only difference between the two. Both are truly premium bullets! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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For truly big-stuff like cape buffallo, the NF might have an edge on penetration over the SAF. The SAF, at higher velocities, tends to mushroom behind the partition as well where as the NF will retain its shank demensions which tends to perpetuate penetration. I saw a comparison between SAF's and Nosler Partitions in a penetration study once that showed that although the SAF's retained a higher % weight than NP's they did NOT out penetrate them. The author attributed that to the secondary mushroom behind the partition with the SAF. FWIW! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Ledvm, Most of the data I have observed over the years support your findings as well. With regard to softs and penetration; #1 is the old Winchester Fail Safe #2 is the Barnes X #3 is the Nosler Partition followed by Swifts and probably a little way back is the TB Bear Claws that at one time developed a very wide front contact patch. I am sure the NF's are sill up there at the top 4 spots. Nosler makes 500 gr 458 bullets now but they cost as much as NF. I was looking for 450 gr anyway. | |||
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The one thing I like about Northforks over the A-Frames is the ease of clean-up. The Northforks with their driving bands keep copper fouling at a minimum. This is a big plus when on an extended safari and a lot of shooting is done and a true cleaning isn't done each night but a bore wipe out is. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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This has also been my experience....better penetration with the North Fork vs the Swift. I think the North Fork gives the best balance between penetration and expansion, but we are probably splitting hairs.......if the Swift shot better in my gun, then I would not hesitate to use it. | |||
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eez I have shot a heap of critters with Swift A Frames, from buffalo on down. Never ever not once, had any issues with enough penetration. I have only tested the North Forks, and they seem to be just fine, I would not concern myself with either bullet! I just come from Australia and shot a minimum of 7 buffalo with my 458 B&M and a 450 Swift A frame out first at 2200 fps. Penetration never an issue. I have shot several Capes with 450-500 gr Swifts, never an issue. And I am very sure that the North Fork would not be an issue either, whatever would do the best in your rifle! Pretty much what CCMDoc (Paul) says would hold true! Pegleg You actually clean big bore rifle barrels? Flip a coin between these two bullets, both are EXCELLENT for conventional premium bullets, and in 458 Winchester, take a look at the 450s, best of both worlds for a cartridge short on capacity. Can easy run 2200-2250 and it's a hammer on buffalo for the first shot, followed by a good solid! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Agreed...Agreed. The NF's shank will stay parallel though and at least theoretically...that should lead to better penetration. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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EZ, The NF in the 450 grain weight is much more reliable and less likely to come apart than a Swift. It held up to 2750 fps point blank impact on my buffalo and still penetrated through off side leg bone. No other bullet in the world could do that. The Swift's rear core pushes through the front mushroom and is likely to fracture at higher than winchester mag velocity. If you are shooting a win mag thats probably OK but not a confidence builder. You can see many pictures of the swift and NF I have published over the years by searching for my name and something about the .458 premium bulets including North Forks. They are worth double the price of Swifts. compared to cost of your hunting in Africa a small price to pay. I use them for practice and hunting both. In the swift I would stick to the higher SD bullets like 500 grain 458 and 400 grain 416. I have posted photos of both. Andy | |||
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You know Andy, I have shot probably in the neighborhood of more than a 1000 Swift A Frames over the last 10-12 years, in all calibers from 30 to .510. I have shot a bunch of buffalo, and many other critters with them and in all that shooting I have never had a Swift break in any way! I had one hit the ball joint of a lions front shoulder once and mangled it pretty good, but it didn't break, fragment and never had the core push through the front mushroom, nor any sort of behavior you describe. Now maybe you are pushing some faster than they need to be pushed, I don't know, but to make such a statement as that is basically incorrect in my book! Come apart? No, never seen it! I just shot 7 + Aussie buffalo with them, of the 2-3 that was recovered, all were perfect, 2200 fps. Other Swifts such as 358 and 338 I have pushed and shot animals with them from 2700-3000 fps, never heard of anything like you are saying. Maybe you got a bad batch or something, who knows. The 450 Swift is excellent for the 458 Winchester and excellent in my 458 B&M. I will keep my confidence I can assure you! This is not to say the North Forks are not good, as they certainly are, but nothing at all wrong with any Swift I ever tested, or shot animal tissue with! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Swift A Frames are the top number one or two soft point DG bullet in existence. I have never heard of one coming apart until now. I would be very interested in seeing a photo of said bullet(s). Why don't you call Bill Hober at Swift and tell him his bullets are coming apart? You can find the number on the Swift website, and he ALWAYS returns his calls. I am sure he will have a ready answer for you. I shot one from a .375 H&H that broke a buff's shoulder, penetrated both rib cages, the heart and both lungs at a range of 80 yds or so, and we found the bullet under the skin on the opposite side. That 300 grain bullet, fired at a MV of 2550 fps, weighed 292 grains after recovery. The buff required no follow up shot. DRT. I would certainly be interested in hearing what Bill has to say about a disintegrating A Frame. Based on Michael's detailed analysis of the A Frame and many observational statements from African PH's who either use the bullet or have observed it's perforamnce in the field, it will be my choice in both .458 and .375 on my next hunt. I am not a heavily experienced hunter, but I have had sterling performance from the A frame in both .375 H&H and the much hotter 7mm Remington magnum. Nothing approaching a bullet failure was noted. Most game taken were one shot kills and recovered bullets retained a high weight percentage and mushroomed perfectly. Many contacted heavy bone and still penetrated to the animals' vitals. | |||
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IMO,although a 300gr swift a frame may be perfect for buff,a 500gr a frame could be a little too tough.The one I recovered from my buff barely opened.It would've opened less if it it was fired from a 458wn instead of a lott.A 500gr TSX would not have opened at all.This brings me back to a test I did with a gallon of gelatin,my 270 and various bullets.I shot the container with a failsafe and the thing didn't move.It was as if I missed it.I then shot it with a silvertip and the thing exploded sending its contents many feet away.After doing this test,and seeing the results from shooting my buff,I ask my self which bullet do I want to send through the heart or lung area of a buff?The answer is,a Woodleigh soft. | |||
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Try the 450 gr. A Frame and speed it up. No flies on the Woodleigh, though. I may load some up for the Win mag. | |||
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I'd go with the heaviest bullet for caliber such as a 500 or 550.No 450 for me.IMO,the 450 was not made for the 458.I don't agree with Hober.I would prefer a RN too.I don't trust my rifle to feed with spitzers or anything else beside RN.One misfeed in 500 rds or 1000rds could happen in a dangerous situation. | |||
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jet I first met Bill just when he took over at Swift, he as done incredible things with Swift since then. He is a gentleman for sure, very interested in our observations and needs. A couple of years ago I sent an email just thru the website I think, concerning wanting a .500 caliber Swift for my 50s! Well it was only a couple of hours later I got an email back from him and we discussed it from there. At that time they had decided to do a .500, mostly for the handguns, and had not decided the weight of the projectile yet. Of course I lobbied for anything over 400 grs, 450 or better would have been fantastic, I explained there were plenty of lighter .500s out there, but only a few heavies in 450 or better to compete with. Since then of course I have proper bullets in .500 for the rifles, not sure but the last time I checked Swift still had not put one out. All that being said, Bill Hober is a fine fellow! I bet it would be news to Bill to hear about fragmenting Swift A Frames! I never heard of one until now! Most certainly, and probably far more important to me, is the fact after all I have shot with many different calibers I have never seen one myself, I think that information should suffice for me! Shootaway I have shot a few buffalo with .458 caliber 500 gr Swifts, perfect performance, 458 Lott, 2250 fps! Could not ask for better, I think I recovered a couple, and might have photos of, not 100% sure I have them in photobucket? I will look. Strange about yours, velocity, distance? I have also shot buffalo with 500 gr Woodleigh soft at 2250 fps, It did just fine, but I did go to war with that buffalo. Now recently I shot one of the Aussie buffs with a 500 Woodleigh Soft at 2130 fps, great performance too. But I also shot a heap of them with 450 Swifts at 2200 fps, and I prefer the 450 Swift in that capacity case, 458 Winchester and 458 B&M. The 450 Swift is superb in both cartridges for buffalo. I have a friend too that has shot elk, moose, and a few other things with the same bullet in 458 Winchester, with excellent results! When I was shooting the 458 Lott I always elected with it's capacity to go with the 500 gr Swift--458 Winchester and 458 B&M it is always the 450 Swift, never once have I come up short with either! Now this is not to say that North Fork isn't, Woodleigh isn't or TSXs or even the NonCons that I am working with, all are good, all will work great and I would not hesitate with any of them. In fact I am dropping everything for the next few years to go with the NonCons! But then again, I run a different track sometimes! Swifts will not let you down, I would bet on it! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I agree about Bill - true gentleman and has always listened and responded to all of my inquiries.  When in Zimbabwe this past September, my PH Wayne Bartlett asked "What kind of bullets do you have loaded there?" I told him Swift A-Frames. "Those are the best, never seen 'em fail." Later on after we had taken our buff, Kudu and Wildebeest, Rhodie Tourle, another PH aske what was used on our game. Told him SAF on the PG. "Ahhh, those are the best, you can't go wrong with Swifts. They're my favorite for Cape buff too." Paul Benny and Danny Friend had the same to say of SAF based on their experiences.  As I said, I have plenty of both in many calibers and have had nothing but exemplary results (as in one-shot, dead game) and picture-perfect bullets when I have been able to recover them. On the other hand, I've not shot hundreds of Cape buffalo with them to say that either one can not fail on such tough game. I'd love to try to find out, though  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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[URL=  ]500gr Aframe(458cal)[/URL] [URL= ]b[/URL] I shot the buff from about 100yds,using my lott(2275fps).He was facing me,slightly sideways.The bullet hit the shoulder and was found under the skin on the other side,near the middle of the body.It was the only shot I had.It missed the vitals but broke the shoulder and immobilized the buff.The second bullet pictured was used by accident in place of a solid and hit the buff in the head and was found in the brain.It was fired from about 25yds. | |||
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I ordered some 450 swifts yesterday. I think I will push them with 75 gr of 2230 (458 Win Mag) to begin with and see what happens. 74 gr of 2230 seems Ok with the 500 gr Hornady out of my rifle so I suspect adding 1 gr of powder behind a 450 lead core should be OK. I will give a report in few weeks when the bullets get in and I can load them up. EZ | |||
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Shootaway Yep, hitting that bone in fact made for a not so perfect looking bullet! Still however, it appears to have not fragmented, broken up, possibly at an extreme angle effected it too. What you did get was a broken down buffalo, on the ground, and your shot thru the brain finished the problem. Both bullets under extraordinary stress, I would say they performed rather well! Below see a few samples of bullets dug from my recent buffalos in Australia 450 Swifts  Below an Example of a 500 Swift from one of my 458 Lotts from buffalo  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael,he was still standing before I gave him the second bullet.Had I shot him from 40 yds and not hit the shoulder joint,it would've looked just like yours.I agree that both bullets are perfect for the job and my Ruger has never failed to feed an a-frame after more than a couple thousand rds.It would be impossible for these bullets to fragment.I've recovered dozens from sandpiles where they came to abrupt stops and they where still intact and in a perfect mushroom form.Next time I take on a cape buff,I will try to put my first shot through the heart.I don't think they will go very far or stay up for long, that way. | |||
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Gents, Pictured are 450 and 400 grain North Fork recovered in 2005 from buffalo in Dande North. Velocity 2,550 fps and 2700 fps.  There is not another bullet in the world that would look so good at this velocity! Lee Reed, who designed the Swift and later sold the business to Bill, certainly knew the rear core expanded (the Swift beer barrel buldge) because the jacket had been annealed when the front core was bonded. This can be a good thing as when it supports the expanded mushroom, but once you get into the lghter weight bullets at magnum velocity it is a problem. This is why Winchester engineers reinforced the bearing surface of the Fail Safe w a steel insert. (I would rather have a Swift however, warts and all, as I prefer a bullet that expands some!)  Pictured are 450 grain 458's at 2450-2500 fps. L to Rt, Barnes X, NF, Swift, Kodiak.  2 out of 3 Swifts fractured front core at this velocity. The one that did not is pictured. Various 400 grain 458's a6 2650-2700 fps. L to Rt, Barnes X, NF, original TBBC, Woodleigh.  The photo of the two NF from buffalo shows why those of us who shoot NF products do so. PS Michael, great pictures and I see why you are so happy w the Swift in your rifle. But I'm shooting the 450 Dakota and need the toughest bullet made. Andy | |||
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When I hunted Africa, the PH told a story about a client shooting a 338 on 378 brass. He was shooting a frames at very high velocity shot a crock with it and the bullet blew up, didn't get crock until days later. | |||
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450 gr NF soft will shoot @~2250 with 72 gr of A-2230 out of my .458 WM. The bands may reduce the friction??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You don't agree with Hober??? That's fascinating. He manufactures the bullets. I'd say he has a leg up on you in practical experience, to say the very least...  | |||
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When I bought dirklawyer's .458 Win, he sent me some 450's loaded with 75 grs of 2230. He clocked them at 2111 average. I shot two at 25 yards for the hell of it and shot two more at 100 yds. Made a one hole group. I have some 2230 ordered and a bunch of 450's on hand. That looks like my next buffalo bullet. BTW, barrel length is 22". With a SD of .304, they should do very well. | |||
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Since I won't be pushing my bullets to Dakota velocities, I'll stick with Swift. And you should ring up Hober and tell him what you've told us. That Woodleigh obviously exceeded recommended velocity. | |||
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No need to...Mike Brady provided us North Forks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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My experience with the two bullets you mention is superb for both and does include soft dangerous game--Lion. Personally I prefer the Woodleigh but would not feel at a loss with either of the two you have mentioned. Use the appropriate weight and let your rifle decide for you by which one it shoots best. The display of PURE POWER is nothing short of AWESOME ! 1 JOHN 3:18 | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores North Fork vs Swift ; 458
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