Taking into account my experience with the Lott and Gibbs, I am looking ahead to the next step up gun. I dont want to one little bit exceed the recoil over the Gibbs.

I like to keep things simple and continue with the CZ550 action without a brake. Build a gun with adequate penetration sectional density x velociy to kill elephant. I dont plan to hunt elephant but the hunting fantasy/potential is an important aspect of the build.

This is what I am looking at today. Playing with a recoil calculator:

458 Lott: 500gr/2300fps/100powder/11 lb gun = 70 ft-lbs recoil (nice level)

505 Gibbs: 600gr/2100fps/110powder/12 lb gun = 75 ft-lbs recoil (not so nice)

Next Gun: 750gr/2100fps/120powder/16 lb gun = 80 ft-lbs recoil

The weight seems to be going up fast.

The big bore compendium shows: 505Gibbs 12 lb gun at 84ft-lbs. And a 14 pound 577NE at 95ft-lbs. Either way a 577NE(or my gun) works out at 16 pounds, to meet my recoil goal.

Any recommendations in bbl contour and length and do I need to weight down the butt for balance?

The caliber would hopefully be 585HE trimed to 3 inch if cases become available or 550 magnum.

Fourbore

I simply must put my 2 cents worth in on this. Now no offense, and this is my opinion only and only concerns me, and not trying to sell anything to anyone. But I would not give 50 cents for everything you mentioned in your post, IF I HAD TO CARRY IT TO THE FIELD HUNTING!

I have plenty of Winchester M70 458 Lotts that I have carried extensively and at 10.5 lbs with a 1.5X5 Leupold and 24 inch barrels they are bulky, heavy after a long day, and unwieldy!

I have a 510 Wells built on a Ruger M77 Mag that comes in butt ass naked at 11 lbs with a 24 inch barrel and I can barely drag it to the range for test work, put some wheels on it I suppose.

And anything over that just forget it, as useless TO ME as having tits!

So smartass (ME), what is my new big gun? My Winchester M70s in 500 MDM with 21 inch barrels and 8.25 lbs with wood stock from AI. This is it, this is as big a gun as I am carrying the rest of my days in the field! What can it do? 550 gr .500 caliber bullets at 2250 fps--510 gr .500 caliber bullets at 2350 fps--470 HP NonCons at 2450 fps. This will do anything I need to do on the planet plus some, and it's a long way from even a standard 458 Lott Winchester M70 in weight and length! Now I won't carry that even too much, and would rather carry my little Winchester M70 50 B&M at 7.5 lbs with an 18 inch barrel and 510s at 2100 fps, which has more than proven itself on the biggest of critters, and talk about fast, handy, and damn easy to tote all day long!

Now that is not to say you have not made good choices, but I would not choose them for myself.
So if a fellow does indeed want a big gun, reckon one can build whatever one desires and make it BIG!
Michael

Thanks Mike, I am sure you are right from a practical consideration my plan has no merit. Basically nothing over 50 would be practical based on the gun weights we expect to carry today.

I can shoot a 13 pound gun off hand, I think I could manage 16 - but; I would not want to carry either. Honestly, I dont like to carry more than a 7 pound gun at the ready. I can sling or carry over my shoulder a lot more weight, but I wont like it.

So; conceding the impracticality aspects. I think I can live with 16 pounds, maybe even kill something.

In the old days, men did use 8ga rifles in this weight class. The 4&6bore even heavier. Anther itch I would like to scratch some day.

In training for my plains game hunt, I found I could carry a 11 to 11.5 lb rifle with out too much fatigue. I did my walking with a 12lb training bar and sling. I shoot off hand no sticks. It does not mater if it is a 8lb or 11lb rifle The balance of a rifle is very important to me. Its got to feel alive and not front heavy but just a little weight forward. Its got to mount fast hold steady and swing smooth. I want recoil relief built into the butt stock with a top line that has no or just a little drop. I want it push straight back,slide away from the face with as little rise as possible. I prefer to take it on the shoulder not the cheek.

JD

fourbore

Oh no my man, merit is in the desire! And does not have to be practical at all, nor even have to be justified! We all get too carried away with trying to justify why we do what we do, sometimes that has merit, but also desire over rides other matters, and thus becomes the merit in itself! No need to concede at all!

I was speaking clearly of my thoughts only, and sometimes they are far too practical and therefore leaving out other very important factors!

For me, 16 lbs would definitely kill something! ME having to tote it!

In the old days men were men for sure! Didn't smoke, type on the computer every day, worked harder, better shape, ate well, and got plenty of exercise. Not old, fat, and out of round like me!

HEH

Enjoy
Michael

Michael, I appreciate the input and understood your meaning. No sweat. Your 50 sounds like a very efficient package. I think the 585HE trimmed back might be also. Some of thsoe old time hunters may have used gun bearers.

I am going to try and steal a photo from bitteroots post on the 600 thread. I like the looks of this gun. (maybe an AHR CZ?) Assuming I use this barrel contour and reduce the hole to 585. Maybe 24 inch long barrel? Then add weight to the butt end?

What would I be asking for: xyz barrel?

Can I just use steel slugs in the butt? My Gibbs has mercury (supposedly), I dont believe it works any better than dead weight?

I'm going to say something that should not be controversial.

Some men are stronger than others, can carry more weight and can handle more recoil. This is not chest-beating, macho posturing, complaining or whining, but rather a fact of life.

My .500 A-Square weighs 12 lbs. fully loaded and ready to go. That weight is fine with me.

I have carried that 12 lb. rifle afield, all day long, for over sixty days during the past few years, with no ill effects (except to the various Cape buffalo, elephant and hippopotamus I have killed with it).

It does get heavy at the end of a long day of tracking, but so does a ten pound rifle. In other words, for yours truly, the extra two pounds are inconsequential.

The trade off is that the rifle generates over 100 ft. lbs. of recoil energy with the loads I use. But for me it's manageable, because the rifle is well-designed and well-balanced. I have no problems cycling the action and loading another round as the rifle recoils.

The same may not be true for any other particular human being - and may not be true for me as I get older. But right now, it's fine.

Also right now - if I were going to build a bigger rifle, I would probably go with the .585 AHR. I would want that rifle to weigh in at around 13 lbs. fully loaded and ready to go to work.

But I won't build that rifle. That's because I am a hunter, rather than a collector or a shooter.

And I think that the .500 A-Square is the practical limit for a dangerous game rifle. The returns diminish themselves right off a cliff beyond the brink of the .500 A-Square, IMHO.

MrLex,

I was reading some of the old 577 doubles weigh in at 13 pounds. But, I also heard from a member of AR (maybe you) they kick like hell.

Everyone is different and 100ft-lbs scares me.

So at least 13 then. And 16 at the high end?

Calibers is still open. Might even consider 1800fps cast bullets in a 600. At this point, I really want 2100fps elephant loads, which limits me to 585 750 pills. And I can go 4 shot, rather than 2.

If I call, ahr, I could state a 14 pound goal and then add weight inside the stock. The H&R made a 10ga had what looked like 2 pound steel rod in the butt. It was not epoxy in, just loose. Having a long 1 inch hole boored in the butt end might allow for added weight for practice and working up loads and maybe taking off weight later. I could even cast a lead rod, and juggle lead and steel weights.

Anyone try this?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I'm going to say something that should not be controversial.

Some men are stronger than others, can carry more weight and can handle more recoil. This is not chest-beating, macho posturing, complaining or whining, but rather a fact of life.

My .500 A-Square weighs 12 lbs. fully loaded and ready to go. That weight is fine with me.

I have carried that 12 lb. rifle afield, all day long, for over sixty days during the past few years, with no ill effects (except to the various Cape buffalo, elephant and hippopotamus I have killed with it).

It does get heavy at the end of a long day of tracking, but so does a ten pound rifle. In other words, for yours truly, the extra two pounds are inconsequential.

The trade off is that the rifle generates over 100 ft. lbs. of recoil energy with the loads I use. But for me it's manageable, because the rifle is well-designed and well-balanced. I have no problems cycling the action and loading another round as the rifle recoils.

The same may not be true for any other particular human being - and may not be true for me as I get older. But right now, it's fine.

I built my blackpowder 4 bore to 14lbs even. It's still too heavy to carry very far and the recoil of the top end loads is near 200 ft lbs which will get your attention. I think the solution for this one is to build to a max 12 lbs rifle and then use lighter loads! There are compromises between power, portability and recoil in a big bore hunting rifle. Big bore rifles are usually heavy and light weight rifles are not usually big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
I built my blackpowder 4 bore to 14lbs even. It's still too heavy to carry very far and the recoil of the top end loads is near 200 ft lbs which will get your attention. I think the solution for this one is to build to a max 12 lbs rifle and then use lighter loads! There are compromises between power, portability and recoil in a big bore hunting rifle. Big bore rifles are usually heavy and light weight rifles are not usually big bores.

I'VE HEARD 26 POUNDS WAS RIGHT FOR 4 BORE!
A 14 pound 4 bore... I think it sounds terrifying!

Please, what's the weight of the projectile?

What velocity are you firing it at?

How much powder are you using per shot?

Thank you!!!

fourbore,
That rifle is a 600 OK, has a 20" barrel and weighs 10-1/2 lbs. We donated it to Dallas Safari Club at the convention of '09 and it went in the raffle. My personal 600 has a 18" barrel and weighs about 11 lbs. It is a little heavy so I will be taking 1/2 lb. out. When you get to this amount of recoil, Mercury reducers are overpowered and become expensive weight. Good old lead works the best to add some ballast.

Bittterroot,

It is a beautiful rifle, just the look I want. But, as Mike said -we are all individuals - I want a smaller bore and heavier gun. Maybe 24 inch bbl, and it easier to cut back later than regret to little. The 20 inch tube sure looks good.

No brake on that 600. I think that is more sporting and better looking at the same time. Less hearing loss.

I guess the 585HE is more shots in the magazine, no need for a brake (given enough gun weight). A win-win situation, even if I give up a few 100's bore diameter. And, I can always go bigger later, 8 bore!

Your comments on the lead confirm my suspicion, mercury is a waste of money. Good.

A I am getting older barrel length has another important function if the rifle will be used with mostly iron sights. The front site on my double that has 24" barrel are never clear, but my buddies with 26" barrel is clear. Bolt guns are longer due to action length, just make sure the barrel is long enough you can focus on the front sight.

JD

Another advantage I have found with a longer and heavier barrel - say, 24 to 25 inches long and fairly thick-walled all the way to the muzzle - is that for me the rifle will really "hang" a lot better and be much more stable when shooting offhand.

BTW, AHR have built four big bore rifles for me, including my .500 A-Square, and they sure do know what they're doing when it comes to designing a rifle to lessen and control recoil forces. I have found that 100 plus ft.-lbs. of recoil energy can be readily handled in such a rifle with a bit of practice.

fourbore, I would not want to use a rifle that weighed as much as a .577 NE double - typically 14-15 lbs. or so - when my .500 A-Square does the job as effectively as it does at a lesser weight.

Plus, I am a bolt action man.

Still, with a 2.5x Leupold compact mounted in Talley rings, my .500 A-Square weighs in at close to 13 lbs. when fully loaded.

But look at it this way. That's not very much heavier than a .500 NE double rifle made at the proper weight for caliber, as the English makers used to do.

And the .500 A-Square is much more powerful than the NE round.

Have Wayne build you up a .450 Rigby at right around ten pounds. With rings, scope and loaded, it will go around 11 pounds or so. You can load 450 grain TSX and banded solids to 2400 fps and that is enough for anything in Africa. That's what I did but mine was a .450 Dakota because when I started the project, Dakota brass was easier to come by. Wayne made a stunning rifle for me.

Jack, This is memory, not exact notes... 1650 gr round balls over 350 gr powder gave around 1100-1200 fps. I did not go any higher. This gun is a real hoot to shoot with 100-150 gr powder. 200 gr is not so bad. It's the classic big boom-slow push of blackpowder and seing 1" holes appear in the target. The recoil of the heavier loads was more like getting hit by a truck. 5 or 6 shots per day was my limit and I don't do that anymore. The heavy load penetrated an adult holstein cow carcass end to end (about 6 ft). I've not shot any live big game with it but I am confident it would be "enough gun" for anything I might run across.

quote:

Please, what's the weight of the projectile?

What velocity are you firing it at?

How much powder are you using per shot?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
...1650 gr round balls over 350 gr powder gave around 1100-1200 fps. I did not go any higher.
This gun is a real hoot to shoot with 100-150 gr powder. 200 gr is not so bad. It's the classic
big boom-slow push of blackpowder and seeing 1" holes appear in the target. The recoil of the
heavier loads was more like getting hit by a truck. 5 or 6 shots per day was my limit and I don't
do that anymore. The heavy load penetrated an adult holstein cow carcass end to end (about 6 ft)...

Thanks a lot MS, very interesting info.

Are there photos of the rifle some where?