I will be recommending to a govt. agency which factory 458 winchester [or maybe a 458 Lott, no other calibers considered, they will NOT buy double rifles ] they should get. These rifles will be used on escaped large animals. The will be issued to individuals with quite a bit of rifle experience [most not with big bores]. I will be training them, they will shoot a lot, they like to shoot a lot.
I need first hand info, the good, the bad, and the ugly, on factory rifles.
The rifle must "work" and stand up to a lot of shooting.
What "scares me" is this:
In my experience most big bore bolt guns do not feed, or eject.
I read here that many split the factory stocks.
I do not yet know what the rifle budget will be.
[no Dakotas, Echols, etc I am sure]
So Please relate your experiences good and bad.
Thanks.

CZ 550 458 Win Mag, and never look back!

I would get cz 550's in .458 win mag and ream to a lott if budget allows. They will need to be bedded and cross bolts added (this would need doing which ever rifle I think). I would then top with talley QD's and a leupold 2.5x compact scope. I think you would have a no fuss low expense set up. This is exactly what I want for my own .458 project.

N E 450 No2,

I'm with the other posts, CZ rifle in .458 Mag.

You can, if you know a good gunsmith transform it into .458 Lott or .450 Ackley for a very few bucks.

You will earn a bonus on top of your consulting fee for recommending a CZ 550 458 winchester Magnum. Glass bed it and have it Mag-Na-Ported. If you scope it, select a Leupold VariX III 1.5-5x20 with Standard Duplex reticle. Talley rings with standard clamp screw.

You will be a hero!

Thanks for all the advice so far. Just remember that when dealing with govt. purchases and equipment "custom" additions are usually out of the question, thus no glassbedding,added crossbolts etc.
Today I looked at the Weatherby Dangerous Game Rifle. I have had 5 Weatherby rifles in the past. All of them would "work" with no problems.
The Weatherby DGR is available in 458 win. It has a "plastic" stock, with an aluminium bedding block [HS precision?], and decent iron sights.
Understand these rifles will spend there entire life in the trunk of a car, summer 100+ degree, and winter, as cold as zero degrees.
They will be shot a lot and no custom modifications can be done.
I like the CZ's, my friend bought one in 375, but I hear they "bust" the stock in the bigger calibers.
The last Winchester Classic Safari Expresses a local gunstore recieved had sights that were mounted crooked. VERY crooked. How these 6 or so rifles could have gotten out of the factory is beyond me.
The CZ is priced very good. Has anyone shot their 458 without modifications very much?

The cz's will defintely need bedding, but if you explain to the department that the money saved over the other alternatives will be significant. I would strongly reccomend the 2.5x compact for a trunk veichle that will be shot a lot. There the toughest scope going around. If no custom stuff is allowed and you want a lott I suppose you must go for the Ruger in a .458 lott (then you will definitely need a 2.5x compact).

N E 450 No2:

I can appreciate your challenge!

I am probably not helping you with this comment, but I would recommend the 416 Rigby or Remington over the 458 Winchester or Lott. I think the guys would shoot the 416 better and I think a 400 grain bullet at 2400fps is the right ticket. Unfortunately, I can not recommend a Winchester. Therefore, the 416 Rigby in either the CZ 550 or the Ruger M77 Magnum MK II would be my choice.

You are going to end up educating the agency on the dynamics of bigger bore rifles in order to help them with their budget.

Buliwyf 458 ammo is quite a bit cheaper than the 416 stuff, which is important for lots of practice. If these rifles are ever fired in "anger" the will be shooting in a city, deep penetrating soft points will probably not be used for that reason. Solids will be carried for the animals that require them. Also the point of impact of the 350gr. Federal factory load will be checked, as it would be useful on intermediate game. All shooting will most likely be close. Iron sights will most likely be used, although I would guess some of the shooters might opt for a scope in a QD mount. I would recommend the 2.5 Leupold with the heavy duplex. These people are experienced scope and iron rifle shooters.

NE450, why not just order a batch of Model 70 Winchesters in .458 Win. Mag. and be done with it. African game departments have been doing just that for over forty years, and the vast majority have had very good results, despite some overblow negative press coverage. Ammo is widely-available, cheaper than any of the .416s or .458 Lott, and the Federal Premium ammunition is excellent.

AD

/

Allen see my second post. that batch of Winchester Safari rifles with the crooked sights left me cold.
The best 458 factory I have seen so far has been the Weatherby DGR I looked at yesterday. I have never had a Weatherby that would not work. I just do not know if they can stand the price.
As far as the CZ's go no one has said the stock will take a lot of shooting without custom work..... not an option in this case.

Good luck N E 450 No2. You'll earn your keep on this one. I don't think your going to find any off the shelf 458's that won't need bedding based on your requirements. I think you help everyone involved by addressing that point up front. If you polled all the bolt action DGR people on the forum I'd guess 95% would insist on CRF as well.

B

I agree with that. I bought my .458 Model 70 eight years ago, and took it to a good local gunsmith right away to iron out the bugs.

We replaced the factory open sights (the rear was held on with ONE dinky screw!) with non-folding, milled-steel open sights from PM Enterprises, with a 3/32" white bead up front. These were screwed and soldered to the barrel. Then that junk Thermoplastic factory bedding was torn out and the rifle was rebedded with Brownell's Steel-Bed, including the barrel-mounted recoil lug. I also had the plastic grip cap replaced with one of steel. The action was then stoned-out and the trigger re-worked, with the trigger being set too light and causing problems in Africa (made right later). A set of Leupold QR mounts, fitted to the receiver, and a Leupold 1.5-5X completed the rifle.

The reworked rifle, once sighted in, never changes zero, even if you detach the scope between shots, and it feeds perfectly. It's really important to have a crisp Model 70 trigger, but not too light. If it's set too light and you work the bolt hard and fast, it'll produce (sur-PRIZE!) a slam fired, and this point can't be stressed enough to any gunsmith you have work over a Model 70 that you'll use for dangerous game. Even so, the Model 70 trigger is the best and most reliable available IF it's reworked properly. I'm now going to replace the extractor with a real spring steel aftermarket unit, which should also be done from the get-go.

450 NE, I detest canted open sights myself. That's why most modern factory rifles need to be reworked - they're not made by craftsmen, they're assembled by production line workers.

I've looked over a couple of the new Weatherby dangerous game rifles. They are excellent and feed very well, plus they tend to shoot.....

AD

[ 02-01-2003, 18:46: Message edited by: allen day ]

Right out of the box? Under $1000? Can't do much to it? That rules out the CZ, as, IMNSHO it needs to be bedded and relieved to be durable.

Choice 1
It's the model 70, period. Put 2# of lead in it, and drive on. That's all.

Next would be the
SAVAGE 116 SE http://www.savagearms.com/centerfire/classic/116sela.htm
it's a kinda crf, and has a muzzle brake (cring) which means it would be easier to tune and easier to shoot for guys that aint used to big bores...

which brings me to my last point... the 500gr 458 pills, (non hornady) are a breeze to shoot in a 9# gun!

jeffe

What's wrong with the Ruger in .458 Lott?

NE 450 # 2,

Considering the large escaped animals you will have to deal with in your area, I think the CZ in 458 would do just fine. Most likely it will be used in urban or densly populated rural areas?
I presume that most of the work would be close up?

For value the CZ would be the ticket. As far as customizing, I don't know of a tactical officer or special response team member who hasn't done their own customizing.

My question is why not just go with the CZ in .375? It seems this caliber would be easier for the shooter to master, even with experience.
more variety of bullets. You know these guys are going to be loading their own one way or the other.

Just my opine.
Hope all is well up your way.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 02-02-2003, 02:33: Message edited by: Rusty ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: CZ 550 458 Win Mag, and never look back!

Exactly!!

Rusty, Sorry you missed the Safari show, I hope all is well.
We like the 458 for its increased punch and less penetration. It is also better on Elephants with body shots, and more likely to break a leg bone if that is the first available shot.
Does any one have first hand any experience with the Ruger 458 Lott. Will the Ruger hold up?
I am the only one of "these guys" that reload.
If the budget does not allow for enough practice ammo the 458 bore is cheaper to reload than any other big bore because of the bulk 405 Rem bullets avialable.
Plus if someone has to go in a "garage" after a 500lb Tiger....Well I know I would fell better with a 458 over a 375.
With liability, and and Govt. regulations individual modifications are taboo for most large agencies.
Rusty, any info on the Double Rifle Pig Hunt?

Can't see a Gov't agency not trying to buy US made products at this time. I'm sure a deal could be struck with any US arms manufacturer to produce a rifle in 458 Win Mag that will meet your specs and budget. Lay your specs out and let them bid on it then test the finalist's. Hey even George Hoffman used a Rem 700.

NE 450 #2,

Nope I haven't heard a word from Johnathon at Camp Cooley. Actually, Peggy and I haven't had much time, with her mom here recovering from a mild stroke and my mom in the hospital with terminal cancer, haven't had much time to put into getting a hunt together. Perhaps when this all sorts itself out.

Take care

Rusty
We band of brothers!

For myself I would opt for the Ruger Safari model, out of the box...

The CZ is a fine choice, but I would sure glass bed it as I have had to repair a lot of split stocks due to faulty bedding or brittle wood...

I really like the CZ after it has been surface ground, all that garbage writing removed from it, action polished out, iron sights replaced, a new trigger, a M-70 safty, and a good re-stocking job..

I enjoyed shooting my 116 Safari Express when I owned it. Had an XS ghost ring on the rear and a Brockman square topped front signt. No other modifications. No DG fell to this rifle but lots of dead Hedge Apples and paper targets. Maybe a few other fun targets to impress the friends. Splatted a coyote with a load of three ,457 round balls as a varmint load. RBs were dead soft and the barrel had to be cleaned every two shots. Mostly close to maximum loads were fired and no stock cracks showed. The gun was not as popular as the CZ, Winchester, Remington, etc. But it was effective and never failed to please its owner. Kind of like a good dog, eh? The stainless might help when the guns are mostly in the car trunk. JMHO Good luck in your decision. PAK

Savage?
DR S

I have a friend who was the head of a state government agency in a midwestern state. The state police and FBI were a floor below his and they had just had an incident that they felt could have been handled better with a heavy caliber rifle. He loaned them his .458 and a box of 20 500 gr cartridges. When they returned the rifle, only 3 rounds had been fired. Three of them had tried the rifle, one shot each, and none were interested in firing any more. He was never asked about large bore rifles again and the state police never persued the matter any farther.

NE,have no opinon to offer but a question what happened in your "ao" to promt the dept to go looking for this kind of set up?

Gentlemen:
Just read where Weatherby is going to chamber for the .458 Lott. Might be interesting?
George

George Hoffman Thanks for the heads up on the Weatherby 458 Lott, that may be the best way to go. I wish you well.
Dave James I'll go into more detail after this deal is done.
If I could just get them to buy factory 470 Double Rifles I would not have all these "problems".

N E 450 No2

Goverment agency?

Depends of their budget.
If budget is high a Dakota with synthetic stock in 458 lott would be nice or perhaps AHR custom CZ or even a Searchy

Out of the box Ruger or Weatherby should do fine, I guess it will spend most of the time in the car trunk

What agency is getting these rifles?

/ JOHAN