Just picked up the January/February 2003 Safari magazine at hte post office, and checking the Table of Contents my eye went right away to Holland & Holland .400 Belted Magnum, with a red "New Stuff" flash after the title.

Whipping right away to p. 51 showed a three-page article by Simon Everett. There are some excellent photos of really gorgeous rifles, but no new information -- for this forum anyway -- is given.

Author Everett says the .400 H&H ammunition is "...now fully tested and available for use." A box of Wolfgang Romey ammunition is in the background of one photo.

There is a label at the top left of p.51 crediting "Page Design by Karen Parker", which makes the article look like an ad.

jim dodd

Jim, the way I read this article on SAFARI is the new 400 H&H mag is actually a .416???? Is that the way you read this?

In any event the cartridge looks very good, and I happen to have two 375 H&H whitworth African express rifles, allowing me to convert one to the new H&H 400 Mag. Do you know if anyone has real measurements, to make reamers and dies?

This is one I want!

Mac,

I saw the .416" report by the author as well, and contacted the factory. The author is incorrect, it remains a .411" as reported here -- the same bullet as loaded in the .450/.400 (400 grain Woodleigh).

My Press Crendential for the SCI Convention is approved, and I have an appointment to interview Russell Wilkin at the show. Hopefully, I will get some information on drawings then, as I am building a .400 H&H as well.

jim dodd

That's good news Jim, I couldn't see H&H following the old dumb nameing of cartridges! I have a good supply of 411 bullets as I have a 450/400NE 3" double, and a TC Contender rifle chambered for 411JDJ, and several 41 Rem mag pistols!

This thing not should be a good cartridge, but it looks like what I think a safari cartridge should look! The case shape should feed like quicksilver, out of a 375 H&H magazine!

[ 01-10-2003, 21:58: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Mac,

Who is making .411" bullets besides Woodleigh the .41 Mag pistol bullet makers?

jim

What case is this 400 based on? Is it the same as their 465? And, which one is it based on?

JohnS,

The .400 H&H is based on the .375 H&H case; the .465 H&H is based on the .460 Weatherby case (I guess to be accurate it is the .378 Weatherby case). Both cases have H&H taper.

jim dodd

Jim-
If that's the case, no pun intended!, then the 400H&H is really nothing more than a 416Rem that uses .423 diameter bullets. Nice concept, just a shame they didn't do it 15yrs ago when it might have caught on better. Ditto their 465, nothing but a 460Wby that uses a bit larger bullet diameter. Seems like they are trying to play catch up in a very over saturated market segment.

JohnS,

I am working on an interview for African Hunter with Holland now, with the next step being a second visit with them at SCI Reno at the end of the month.

The .400 H&H loading is a .411"/400 grain bullet using the .375 H&H case necked up. The .465 H&H is a .468"/480 grain bullet using the .378 Weatherby case necked up. Both cases feature H&H's style in case design: belts, lots of taper and low-pressure loadings.

Holland knows their marketplace, and their customers. Previously they were chambering rifles for a collection of cartridges (.404
Jeffery, .416 Rigby, 458 Winchester and Lott, .475 Ackley and 500 Jeffery
-- even .505 Gibbs). Holland has orders in from their customers for these new chamberings in their bolt-action rifles. Last year at SCI Las Vegas they were quoting one year after order for delivery, and they had two prototype rifles at the show. This year they are showing production guns. The .400 H&H and .465 H&H allow them to offer something else of their own to their customers. They are not trying to compete with Big Green or Big Red, and there is no crowd in their market niche.

Their plan has been to release the cartridges to the trade, and let them stand on their own merit.

If you think of these two cartridges as bolt-action versions of the .450/.400 and .465 NE, checking the field results of these two wonderful double gun chamberings would lead you to believe they will indeed perform. I certainly think so.

jim dodd

Hunter Jim,
I believe Barnes is making a 400gr X .411" bullet these days.
http://www.gunaccessories.com/barnes/X-Bullet.asp

Hawk is also making a couple of different jacket thickness 400 grain .411".
http://www.hawkbullets.com/P-LIST.htm

[ 01-12-2003, 01:28: Message edited by: Yukon Jack ]

GS custom do or can do any bullet in 411 or 468 ( special order )
check www.gscustom.co.za

good shooting

dantec

Jim-
It's quite obvious that H&H wants the performance of the other cartridges, only with their name on them! That's fine, and I'm sure they will sell a few of their rifles over the years. As you say, in their market there isn't much of a crowd. Whether or not the "trade" business helps the cartridge along is open to question.
The folks who love gentle sloping cases will likely want one. The performance on game has to be good, just look at what they are copying! If they would have made it 416 diameter I personally feel it would have been better, simply because of better bullet selection. I also think they should have used the unbelted Rigby case for the big bore edition.

[ 01-12-2003, 07:44: Message edited by: John S ]

Hey everyone, I just invented something. It's round and turns in a circle and can be used to build transportation devices. I think I will call it 'the wheel'.



If H&H needs this cartridge to compete in the big bore market, then of course I wish them the best.

Hunter Jim,
I, for one, am interested in what you find out. The new H&H offerings may not impress some, but should do as H&H claims. When you get some new info, please post it for those of us who are interested.

Jim,

With the apparent movement at H&H, and your connections with their staff, could you manage to garner from them the case specs.

Will a reamer be available from anyone in the near future?

Thanks,

Roger QSL

Let's also keep in mind that H&H does not make magnum mauser actions, so their options are a bit limited. H&H is where the brand-conscious customer may go, and there is not doubt they have some nice stuff. But guys who want the optimal ballistic performance from their rifle may be forced to shop elsewhere. Personally I prefer the work of Reimer Johannsen, Joe Smithson and Ryan Breeding.

I'm a bit curious as to why they haven't seen fit to allow even a photograph of the rounds to be published.

George

GeorgeS,

The factory gave me a photo of the cartridges last year: it is a "picket fence" of the .375, .400 and .465 H&Hs all in a row. I will have to dig out the digital version of it and get it posted.

Also the SCI Safari article I referenced above in this thread has a photo of the .400 H&H cartridge and the WR factory box. It is big enough and shows enough detail to be interesting.

I am also working on specs and drawings, but I don't have them yet.

jim dodd

Jim, just out of curiosity do you know how long it takes H&H to make a custom bolt rifle? The standard out there seems to be a year to 18 months and I am curious whether H&H falls into that timetable or not.

500grains,

Holland was quoting one year and US$22,000 for a bolt gun ordered at the last SCI Convention (March, 2002).

I will see how they are doing this year.

jim

" Indeed, the .400 is actually being driven at a SLIGHTLY higher speed than expected. Chronograph results have shown an average of nearly 2500fps, reflecting the potential within the old cartridge."
Mac-
That quote was taken directly from the SCI article. Are those the ballistics of the 450/400? I totally disagree with you about them copying the 416Rem. ballistics, because that is exactly what this article alludes to their doing.
As for proprietary cases, whose case are they using as a basis for their 465? Why, none other than a .378WEATHERBY. I guess it's easier for them to swallow that than it would be for them to use something John Rigby invented.

Gentlemen - I think H&H just caught the same illness that Remington and Winchester have recently suffered from - Building something we don�t need. Come to think about it, this is worse that the short mags and ultra mags - they didn�t even bother to create a new case for it!!! From a wildcat perspective, the .400 is completely useless.

The .375 was introduced in 1912. Gee, it only took them 91 years for someone at H&H to come up with the brilliant idea to neck it up to .411. I cannot wait to see what the next colossal step forward for H&H will bring. Maybe in another 50 years they will decide to get rid of the friggen belt.

This is exactly what 168 years of doing it the same ole way will produce.... NOTHING NEW. Their new marketing slogan should be - �We may not be creative, but we sure are consistent.� OR �We started in 1835, and nothing has changed.�

Asleep behind the wheel

[ 01-16-2003, 01:24: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

From the SCI article, H&H does not even make their own actions. So you pay $20K for someone else's action with an H&H barrel and a mid-grade stock.

Their web site list the starting price @ $24,550 USD. It would be very easy to raise that to 28-30k with just a few common upgrades. Think of the rifle you could have made here for half that.

[ 01-16-2003, 06:02: Message edited by: Kboom ]

Hunter Jim,
I posted earlier in this thread that Barnes was making a 400 grain 411 X. Last week I did some searching on Barnes' website and did not see listed anymore, so I guess they have discontinued it. I have noticed that several suppliers still have some on the shelf, though. So, if you have any intention of using the X, you might want to stock up now, while they are still available.

North Fork is doing a 325 grain 411 and I saw a Swift 411 400 grain advertised in Cabellas 01 catalog.

Russ & Yukon Jack,

I expect Swift will have a booth at SCI in Reno next week, and Barnes will be there for sure. I will get the latest news from them on their plans for .411" bullets.

I have talked to Mike Brady about his plans, but right now his .411" North Fork bullets are for lighter weights (translation other calibers).

I have an appointment with Holland to finish my interview with them on the .400 H&H.

jim

I think if I were a cyberlord type, I would immediately order a pair in .300 and .400 H&H. It would make a lovely light African pair that you could hunt the world with and never fear a case jam. Those long, sloping shoulders that the early and mid-20th century gun writers pooh-poohed so much feed like greased lightning and leave you with no underlying anxiety about where the second and third shots are coming from. However, being a poor, working stiff instead, I can get perfecly good .450/400 ballistics and lightening feed from an old .404 Jeffery. It's all about cache', old boy, doncherknow!