After many many years I have waved goodbye to Model 70 and 375 H&H.

I have owned 2 378s and 2 460s before but their biggest problem is the huge freebore makes mid range loads very difficult to achieve, at least with the powders we have in Australia. 416 Wby is fine as it has conventional freebore but lacks the bullets of 375 and 458 bores. In addition Wbys have never appeaed to me as a custom gun proposition.

Redding and CH are fine for dies and Dave Manson is fine for reamers. A 30/416 (with no changes) and removable pilot will allow 30, 338, 375 and of course 416 Rigby to be done.The 450 Rigby is improved slightly to get enough shoulder for headpspacing so needs a different reamer.

3 CZ 416 Rigbys are to be the starting point. One 375/416 and 450 Rigby to be customised. The other one to be done with a strap around the recoil lug and glued into the forend and fiberglass stock. Without a barrel lug this rifle can be switch barrel.

I would expect most loads from the 375/416 to be used at 375 H&H ballistics. However the 375/416 will allow a much greater variety of powders to be used and of course offers the option of going real fast. That has always been my one complaint about the H&H. Apart from Reloader 15, the 4064 burn rate is too fast for the 375 H&H and the 4350 burn rate results in very compressed loads, especially if pointed bullets are to be used.

Initailly I was going to go via the 375 Ultra case. However I eliminated that for a couple of reasons. Firstly I don't like Rem 700s and could not buy any suitable blued rifle ready to go in the Ultra caliber and am very wary of actions changed from their original case to a new case. No such problem with the Rigbys and starting with the CZs

Also, the Ultra case does not provide a good 45 caliber option for 2 reasons. Necking up through 2 caliber ranges is not the best thing in town. Also the very small shoulder on a 450 Ultra would be a problem for very reduced loads with cast and paper patch bullets. Even a 308 with very light loads will increase headpace for each shot.

I also like the idea that the Talley mounts clamp straight to the CZ receiver which will make for a nice rifle when the scope is removed as opposed to having bases left behind.

As a by the way, I emailed Clymer about a ramer and they emailed back their price sheet on a file I could not open. Dave Manson is extremely good and will do the removable pilot reamer.

I contact Huntingtons about dies and they no longer do this "one off" stuff and suggested I contact Redding!!!, who are fine for dies as are CH. Dave Davison from CH has been extremely helpful and is also doing a 450 Rigby himslelf.

Funny how things change. Many years ago I went through the 6mm/06 stage and contacted Redding about dies and they suggested contacting Huntingtons. Perhaps all those takeovers involving RCBS have changed things.

Dies made for 375/416 are about $150US from either CH or Redding. Dave Manson reamer with removable pilot is $175US.

I am now 375 H&Hless and Model 70less

For me at least, the 450 Rigby seems to offer the best combination of being classy and practical as compared to the 500 Jeffrey or 505 Gibbs.

You will note that the 416 Rigby itself is not included except for the starting rifles. The main reason for that is you simply don't have the bullets that are in 375 and 458. Also, I know from the 416 Wby, it is harder to get a lighter load doing 2500 to 2800 with moderate recoil as you are really limited to 300 grainers. For cast bullets I much prefer the 45 bore to 416. 375 bore has those wonderful 220 Hornady flat points and also the new 225 grain Spire Points.

Mike

PS. I just received a fax from Dave manson on the reamer drawings for 375/416 and no changes. All in less than 24 hours after my first email to him. Excellent service.

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 05-24-2002).]

Mike,
Why not just make a 378 with a conventional throat and have all that readily available (and easy to find)brass?Remember,a 375/416 Rigby is nothing but a beltless 378.

Brian,

A few reasons.

Firstly brass in Australia is not an issue as the Norma 416 Rigby brass and Wby brass have equal availability and cost.

In fact Rigby brass is easier since the importers only have to worry about once caliber in expensive brass. With Wby they have several calibers to deal with. Also the cheap CZs in 416 will make them far more popular out here than mark vs in 378 or 460.

Secondly, the 375/416 is the main part of the game and its case is smaller than 378. I would be totally happy with 375 Ultra capacity as 95% of loads fired will duplicate a range of loads from reduced 375 H&H through to full power 375 H&H and the smaller the case the easier reduced loads are to work with.

Thirdly, like the Rem Ultra the Wby caliber has no appeal for me in custom rifle that is Mauser based.

Fourthly, the necks on the 375/416 and 450 are longer than the Wby cases and that makes things better for cast bullets.

Fifthly, the CZs are in 416 Rigby to start with so all feeding problems are elimianted. If the CZs were done on Wby cases feeding would be an unknown until some time down the track.

The plus for the Wby cases is that being belted they won't increase headspace with very reduced loads for each shot. Also dies would be standard even though the reamers were made with short freebore.

If I saw Wbys as serious rifles, which I don't, then I would have just ordered 378 and 460 reamers with conventional throats and purchased used 300 Wby rifles and mag box and follower for the 378 case.

So in short, the 375/416 and 450 being chosen over the Wbys is mainly personal preference and it just so happens in this case that my personal preference also results in a slightly easier track to follow and better outcome, at least for what I want.

Mike

[ 05-26-2002, 03:55: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike your setups sound good. 416s are "bigger" compromises then 375s anyways, your 450 ought to put the pinch on them hogs.
take care

Sounds like you got your mind made up Mike , but I would have taken a bit different track........375 Weatherby and 458 Lott.......These offer a good increase in performance over their standard counterparts , yet with the prospect of much more reasonably priced and easily available brass than Rigby based cartridges ......I am under the impression you wish to use a large amount of moderate loads or even a lot of much reduced loads.......the two choices I mention still are not of such great capacity that reduced loads will not work out nicely, I am wondering how the very large Rigby case will work for reduced loads?........feeding should not be a big concern with either cartridge in converted CZ s, or they would also work work in M-70 s if you preferrred . If you don't like freebore you could simply have the .375 done without it.....AND the .375W has a nice long neck(compared to many cases) that should work well with cast loads............AND the dreaded belt for positive headspacing of your reduced loads.......AND you could still use .375 H&H or .458 ammo in the rifles if the occation called for it.........

sdgunslinger,

All good points.

These are the bugs (for me at least) in the 416 case calibers:

1) Dies are a big deal and sometimes one set of dies simply don't shoot as well as another set and even for different loads. Hence my place looks like a distributorship for 375 H&H dies.

2) Being stuck with Talley mounts that clamp direct to the gun. Great for appearance but I worry a little bit about any problems. With round top receiver you heat up the bases and throw the lot to the shit house and start again and no matter what you do you stuff up the receiver.

3) Necking down and necking up. Mechanically a snap to do but for peak accuracy it is not my preferred option when cases are not neck turned.

4) Economically, it is not practical to have huge supplies of brass on hand.

5) The hassle of getting reamers and dies specially made and then having to get them out here.

Each point on its own is OK but when they are added up together it is a bit annoying.

Another alternative is to spend the money that the 416 cases, reamers and dies would cost and use it to get M70 lenghtened magazines. The M70 375s already have the bolt stop and ejector for 416 Rigby length.

But you would need a new floorplate unless the magazine was not lengthened to its full depth. Also need te one piece floor plate as the bolt comes back and exposes half the middle screw hole.

Certainly the 375 Wby with the freebore altered alows for standard dies, but that still involves quite a bit of cost as well.

If only I could fall in love with Remington

I have had a couple of second thoughts that were enough to get my "gun man" to put 375 H&H guns and gear disposal "on hold"

The rimless case is also an issue with very reduced loads as I have been down that road with the 308, but of course with the 308 you just chuck em out rather than necking back up and then back into the full lenght die. Perhaps the very sharp shoulder of 45 degrees on the Rigby case would greatly reduce the increasing headspace for each shot.

Perhaps for me this will be like a "divorce" that does not go ahead because the new woman is not so good afterall

Mike