I'm fairly certain a 400 caliber double at 2200 FPS or a 470 at 2000 FPS is a damn fine killer of buffalo and elephant..

A 416 REm,404 Jefferys with a 400 gr. bullet at 2300 to 2400 is likewise a killer of Buff..

The375 with a 300 gr. bullet at 2400 to 2500 is also a killer..

The 9.ex62 and its breather with a 286 or 300 gr. bullet at 2300 to 2400 works also, you just need to load them up to that level..

I dont't need stats to prove that, I learned it shooting buffalo..

quote:

I dont't need stats to prove that, I learned it shooting buffalo..

Play it again Ray!

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Originally posted by ALF:

A solid and soft fired from same gun same bullet mass velocity etc which comes to a stop in the target would have deposited the same amount of energy to the target however the amount of energy deposited per unit of distance penetrated would differ in profile. And this is the point of the whole discussion !

Alf,

I think about everyone has know since started shooting some animals.

It is really about trade offs and differs with different shooters.

Saeed is an example. He has posted lots of pictures of those 300 grain bullets he makes himself. In a very high percentage of cases thee recovered bullet is almost like a 375 wadcutter. He wants a one bullet rifle and that works OK on anything from any angle. He is a very good shot and that comes from a mate of mine who has shot where Saeed has been shooting so Saeed can lose some quick killing power on smaller chest shot animals since his bullet placement will be very good.

Alf,

As to velocity I think there are a couple of things.

Firstly, demonstrations such as 4 gallon water drums etc. will reflect the increase in KE.

Secondly is bullet expansion. However, bullet expansion as you know can be done at low velocity with the right bullet. 300 grain Hornady and 400 grain Speer in 458 come immediately to mind.

I think momentum has an effect. I have shot heap of big Red kangaroos, pigs and goats with the 458 loaded to about 2000 f/s and the 300 Winchester at full loads with 130-150 grainers, so about same energy as the 458 loads. No doubt the 458 I the winner and especially when observed over a week.

HOWEVER, while the 458 load has a lot more momentum it is also much larger bullet and perhaps that is the reason.

We had an Australian bullet maker (unfortunately just retired) who made soft bullets in 308, 375 and 458. Either flat nose or flat nose hollow point. On Australia's biggest gun forum heaps of blokes used them and all the same and that is the 375 and 458 shit all over the 300 Winchester.

One other point on momentum nd that is the conservation of momentum. If both bullets stay inside the animal and thus have zero momentum then the bullet with more momentum had to either cause more flesh to move or the same amount of flesh t move faster.

Wounding research has shown that it is possible for a bullet to push aside veins, arteries and edges of internal organs. It is also possible for a bullet to create a pressure wave that causes a permanent wound cavity much larger than bullet diameter. Lots of factors involved including bullet shape, bullet diameter and very importantly impact velocity. Impact velocity above 2000fps seems to be the point where a good permanent wound cavity is reliably created.
At impact velocities above 3000fps if the bullet holds together and is heavy enough to maintain velocity then tissue damage can be massive, "liquefying" internal organs.
Depending on distance, a muzzle velocity of 2100 to 2400 fps will give an impact velocity above 2000fps but not so high that the bullet breaks up.
Bow hunters use broadheads to kill quickly because they slice thru veins, arteries and organs in a wide area instead of using field points which leave little damage behind. Diameter of permanent wound cavity has a similar effect.

Alf,

If not permanent wound cavity, then what is the proper term for the area permanently upset in the wound track? I have always known it described as permanent cavity, as below.
I am pretty sure the bullet did not expand to 15cm to create the permanent cavity then shrink back to 1.95cm.


The pressure in front of bullet I referred to was this-
It is not generally recognized that when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile.
— An Experimental Study of shock waves resulting from the impact of high velocity missiles on animal tissues
by E. Harvey Newton and his research group at Princeton University in 1947

My point about a broadhead was that to kill an animal it is best to destroy as large of a wound track as possible causing the animal to bleed out or disrupting major functions.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Mike:

From a physics perspective ( and that is what it always is ) momentum per se as parameter holds no value in determining projectile effectiveness !

The reason is quite simple really because two projectiles can have the same momentum one fast and light the other heavy and slow ! However and always when we look at the resistance each will experience and the effect of that resistance they will differ significantly

But Alf I was assuming equal KE but different momentum for two bullets. If both bullets are stopped (like a ballistic pendulum) then Conservation of Momentum says the momentum of both bodies combined will be the same after the collision. So if bullet A has twice the momentum as bullet B and both are stopped by the target then each bullet has zero momentum after the collision so therefore the momentum is in the flesh/bones or whatever and it will be twice as great for bullet A.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

We can have two projectiles one heavy and slow one light and fast both can have the same momentum or the same kinetic energy but the injury created would be vastly different

Alf,

That is what I am saying except that KE is the same for both bullets but momentum is much different. As I posted before a 375 and especially a 458 loaded to have same KE as 130-150 gain 300 Winchester and results on very low chest shots on the big Red kangaroo and similar placement on pig except we would call it vey rear chest shots, the 458 wins the day and with bullets like the 400 gain Speer. That bullet and especially the locally made 400 grain flat nose hollow point have very rapid expansion at the lower velocities.

And we are not talking 2 shooters and 15 animals. Much, much bigger numbers.

However, as I also posted before it might have nothing to with the extra momentum of the 458 (and 375 with quick expanding bullets) but the physically bigger bullets. Perhaps it could also be the initial impact of the large flat nose bullet compared to the 30 calibre spitzer.

its all interesting reading what you boys have to say big is good fast is good but bullet placement is everything period 416 and 458 win shooter

I agree with most of this stuff, most of these posts are spot on or close!

It all boils down to sticking the bullet in the right spot, all else is almost twaddle! you do need a properly constructed bullet to stick in there!