My wildcat cartridge has generated enough interest
on the web and local friends, to get a run of brass made.Will have Deiter Horneber make it.
Here is picture of 458 HE(which will be heastamp)
flanking a 458 Win.



Here are cartridge measurements---
I built cartridge from 450 NE BRASS.
Cartridge length--3.450 in.--
Rim dia--.532 (same as H&H base)---
Belt dia-.543--
headspace length--.235 (H&H is .220,Wea is .250.)-
Base dia- .527 (just ahead of belt)
No shoulder. it is a straight taper.
Neck dia--.480

Here are some of the ballistics-
350 gr bullet up to 3500 fps--
400 gr bullet up to 3300 fps--
450 gr bullet up to 3100 fps--
All three above with hard base brass--
500gr bullet 2450 to 2800 fps with soft headed brass.With Hornebers harder brass it will go
over 2900 fps.

Best powders are Doublebase Ball, as they stretched brass less with full power loads,
than IMR powders with starting loads.We have tested 17 powders, two barrel lengths, about
1900 rounds in 3 years developement.

For Roger-We got 2 450 NE reamers and reground them to new specs needed
to make chambers.On the bench chronographing we
had a heavy tripod locked to barrel of test rifle
with double ear protection and was able to shoot
comfortable.Test rifle was Ruger 77 that was
458Win that I rechambered 1st to a 3 in cartridge,
and not being satisfied when to the longer one.
This cartridge is perfect for Ruger #1, and doubles with good extractors, and for single shot bolt actions also(I am single shot nut)like I did with Ruger and an Enfield.

Any one interested in getting set up let me know,
already have orders for 400-will get about 2500 to start which covers tooling,manufacture, shipping, duties.Three bucks per cartridge will do it.Have places to get reamer and die sets.Ed.

Do you have anything that is fat and short ? Nice wildcat though! Thanks!

Ed- good going. Why not rechamber a Encore for this round? It answers the problem for the guys who want 460WBY performance in a handgun! -Rob

Mingo-You can't get the horsepower out of fat and short, and still have brass you can reload 50 times.You could try JD's 950 wildcat, but actions are too hard to get.To give an example of what
my creation has done, we shot a 350 gr at 3500
into a block of ballistic gelatin, and it disintegrated into real little pcs.It was a foot sq and 3 ft long, and the force of gelatin exploding broke the table in two it was setting on.That was a spitzer bullet, and maybe use as a
dangerous chuck cartridge.HaHah.

Rob-I have a nutty pyro, who wants to try that
but I told him he have to get muscles like Arnold,
because we'd have to weight it up to about 12 lbs.
Thanks for your help and info.Deiter has a great product and is easy to work with.Everyone says his brass will give 10% more vel than what I have now. I will retest first runs when done and I
think 500gr at 3000 will be easy.Ed.

hubel458!

Are you going to hunt with the 458hubel express? I think that the 350 grainer going at 3500 fps will make a big hole in game It is a real splitter bomb? Could you post pictures of the gelatin block? If there is something left...

500grains-Yes the case is 3.45 in long.Overall loaded length ranges from 4.0 to 4.3 in long.
My Enfield I have chambered would be long enough for a single stack magazine, by changing to a
sear spring on the back, allowing the sear lever
ahead of pivot to be shortened back.Then open mag well back.Other actions could be lengthened
like I have seen Two Mausers used to make one.
Also with a little work Savages would do.

Overkill-We shot a 400 gr Barnes Spitzer through
a buck and a doe, and halfway through pine stump.
Instant kills.Bullet quite expanded.100 yd shot.
No picture possible of block.That was back in 98.
Nothing left of gelatin block.The developement of the cartridge was from 95-98.I would have tried to get it going with a run of brass then, but laid
the project aside to try along with my
great friend Johnny Rowland
(460 Rowland fame)and others to get a TV Network going for Gun Owners.My own personal machine and
gunshop is also a small TV editing studio.Now we
will see if cartridge can be a little famous or
at least a little notorious.Ed.

Ed,

Thanks for putting this out to the forum. Should see a lot of both good and bad.

You mentioned the Savage as a platform for your round. Have you physically tried this?

I bought a left-handed 110 in 300 Win. Mag. back in 1963, when they first brought them out. MOA shooter with heavy loads.

Keep posting.

Thanks,
Roger QSL

What is the case capacity of the 458 HE compared to the 460 weatherby?

Thanks.

Ed
how did you get the 3.00" cases you first tried.

"KMuleinAK
One Of Us
Member # 7008

posted 02-27-2003 11:56
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mingo:
Do you have anything that is fat and short ? Nice wildcat though! Thanks!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Mingo - how about a 460 weatherby shortened to 2.00", expanded to .510", rebated rim to shoot from a ruger short action? A local gunsmith is working on this one, no name for it yet as it is several months from completion - have one sample case, if you want I can email photo to you? KMule"

KMule- It's named a BMD short. I have one. Do a search here for more info.

http://members.amaonline.com/firepower/html/50bmd.htm

Roger-I measured a long action savage and it would
work with changes.

RNS-I built my brass out of 450 NE brass and just
made it 3 in with same .527 base.Not fast enough
at moderate pressures, so I went as long as I could make the brass.

500grains-It holds 3 grains more water than Wea.
Which isn't alot.The secret to my extra horsepower is just ballistic engineering.When you
compare the quickness of powder(There is a formula) needed in a 458 Win for a 500 gr bullet,
to the quickness of powder needed in my cartridge,
the extra powder normally means you have to go quite a bit toward the slow end of the powder scale.IE, 458Win using 75 gr as opposed to mine using 130, means I should get velocity similiar to Wea.But if you can use similiar speed powders
in mine that worked in 458Win, and keep pressure
moderate you will get more energy.So the powders that do the job are double-base ball that take
a 100 msec (and they are faster on the scale which is an overall comparison)to get to peak pressure in my straight chamber instead of other powders that take only 50 msec in bottle neck cases.That keeps pressure
from going over limits, but yet the total area under the pressure curve is much more, which is the only thing that determines energy delivered out of the barrel.And my full power loads with
double-base ball stretched brass less than starting loads with stick powder(which I am not in love with).And ball powder loads were 400 fps
faster for 500 gr than stick powder startng loads.
Faster powders don't have to mean a higher pressure spike, if right powder is used you get a
longer pressure duration, below levels that stick the case in the chamber.Ed.

Ed,

If a Savage in 458 Win. could be used, what type of work would be needed to get your round to work in the gun?

Roger QSL

Roger-It would have to be long action.You lengthen
port by cutting back rear bridge.Lengthen
cartridge opening in bottom of receiver. Build longer box for
magazine, that would go clear back to back action-floorplate screw,probably a single stack.These
changes and getting it feeding right are for
real experts, as that isn't my expertise.I just measured and it looks doable.Ed.

Mingo - I sent you an email with two photos - KMule

I suspect a 4.3 inch long loaded cartridge COL would be a major challenge to get to feed in any standard action. I'll look at a savage, but frankly that would be one of my last choices for a action that long at this power level. Your going to have to cut way way back into the rear bridge and lower action and probably substantially into the front lower locking lug. This everyone knows is a real bad idea as FN proved years ago. Eventually the trigger mechanism itelf and its attachment points will limit how far you can go back and then the only other place to go is to the front. I have a granite mountain action specifically built for a 3.84-3.9 inch 505 Gibbs and to get another .5 inches in length would be a major problem. Most magnum actions also probably won't work.I would probably take the approach of cutting and welding two actions together to make a specially built long action for this cartridge if I just had to have a bolt action. a special magazine would also have to be made. Stocking this will be fun!
All in all, I think when you get to cartridges this long, the best actions will be Single shots . Rimless doubles are also a recipe for disaster.Butch Searcy's new Farquarsen would be a good approach IMHO.-Rob

Rob-You right that it is best in single shot.
And taking two actions to make one that is longer will work also.Ruger 458 win and Lotts are perfect.In fact two locals are getting one each
and part of the brass order.And more are talking
about it.The $600 price on #1's on gunbroker.com
has them really happy about getting into big bore action, economically.Ed.

Ed- I have to admit a certain negative bias with Ruger #1's. That bias revolves around the recoil reduction limits of even a highly modified #1. A few years ago I built a 500 NE for a friend on one and even though it was ported and we swiss-cheesed the stock with lead and epoxy, it still kicked worse than a 6 lb 300wby with a steel buttplate! I don't think we ever got the weight much over 11 lbs. It cracked the stock after about 50 full power loads, and the only fix that held was to add ugly as sin epoxy bed between the receiver and the stock. I know it's probably the least expensive way to get into a major big bore, but they are not for the recoil shy! Now where did I leave my mouth guard! -Rob

Rob-Folks that use #1's with regular barrel I will give them loads that will be ok with 11 lb rifle.And most guys doing this will be shooting
350 and 400 gr bullets for deer, elk, bear.For those that want close to full power with heavier bullets I will tell them short barrel must go, and put on a heavy longer barrel.I hate short barrels.Adding lead and epoxy you can get wt to 13 lbs,in butt and some in forearm.Also put a
barrel ring in end of forearm ala 77 Ruger.At 13
lbs, recoil is 110 ft lbs,with heavy loads.And with heavy bullets backed to 25-2600 fps, recoil is 70-80 ft lbs with weighted gun.It will work as I have done about 1500 rounds on an old
swamp hard maple stock on my test rifle, with no
crossbolts and it holds up.Extra barrel length and extra wt does it.Remember pics of Ross firing
Nyati.An example; it was way too light and too short of barrel.Now I am stocky and strong so gun wt don't bother.I am old and slow also,but
that means I will wt the gun so it don't kick.And of course a lot of bolt actions can work as single shots, and easy to wt and they work..I have hunted single shot for 50 years.Ed.

Ed
How about the http://www.prairiegunworks.com/id8.htm
They will modify the action to feed like a regular hunting rifle and at 4.5". RNS

RNS-We will talk to them.It is surprizing the guns
that can be reworked for long cartridges.Checked
schematic on Savage long action,and it might
work.I already know my ENFIELD can be made to
feed as repeater.Ed.

Ed
Read this post and here is a good contact for your cartridge.Rod@MRC
One Of Us
Member # 7846

posted 02-24-2003 08:50
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Ray: some folks confuse "drop box" with detachable magazine. PH certainly won't have the latter. It looks like (so far) we can get four rounds in the hinged floorplate arrangement with a slight belly in the floorplate and some close attention to the follower, and still not push the bottom metal too far away from the action for traditional classic style stocking. That's looking at it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. Marketing is another perspective. Should it have a drop box in spite of mechanical necessity? What are the advantages? Drawbacks? One of our stock sources says they have gorgeous drop-box pattern just waiting for this action. Obviously, we'll listen, try to get a market consensus and then go with it.

Howard:

Talk is talk until you spend money on it. Then it becomes a plan.

Long Action in RH is in volume production.

Long LH and Short RH & LH have significant investments in CAD. 99% done. We're finalizing the mag boxes for the SA now and I expect to see new drawings maybe even tomorrow. I need the mag box outlines to verify optimum casting magwell dimensions. That's the last piece. Hopefully, this week we'll write a big check to Ruger and start the molds (thank you all).

As soon as the SA mag boxes are done, CAD guys go to work on WSSM. We outsource the CAD (and write checks) to a local firm that is top-notch. So that means WSSM becomes a plan. WSSM will be delivered in both RH & LH some six months after we write Ruger another big check. At this point, I have no idea when that might be.

We've already spent significant funds on the PH, so it's a plan too. Got more shape-work to do, and some magazine work and then we have to see how it compares with some stocking choices out there. The guys from Chey-Tac were lobbying for a 4.500 inch magazine, but if this thing gets any heavier, it might need tracks. At some point you gain the fringes and lose the middle. I suspect the PH will get back on the front burner sometime in late April or Early May.

What's just talk: The skinny mini. The .223 and Tac-20 action. Haven't spent a dime yet. Looking at some solutions and writing up design goals. Making decisions about where this model might go and what part of the market it would serve.

Hope this helps.

Rod

Good luck RNS

RNS-I talked to MRC a little, and they say that
the big PH Action may take as long as a year to develope.Gives lots of time to work with them.
Getting inquiries on brass, and have places for 500 rounds.I think in a couple months will have
commitments for couple thousand and if it takes off, getting long actions made are a lot easier.
One great thing, that will help get it going is there is a lot of #1's out there.Ed.

An update on our progress.Now have commitments
for 600 cases.Ed.

ED here is the part from above that I was most interested the ph only has a 4" box. check you profile for a Private message.

"The guys from Chey-Tac were lobbying for a 4.500 inch magazine, but if this thing gets any heavier, it might need tracks."

keep us posted RNS

RNS-I told them we need a 4.5 inch mag also.
We will keep talking.

Everybody, good news.Have the first of my big wildcat done,in picture from the left is a
458 Win, Then 458 Hubel Express, Then my
510 Hubel Express,and THE 700 HUBEL EXPRESS.

The 510 HE, I am not promoting it, as when we
did it 4 years ago no brass had quite enough thickness in the base for a belted case
so it is rimmed.Built from 475 #2 NE brass.
It will get 600 gr bullet to 3000 fps.

About the 700 HE. I decided to build a 700 HE
instead of a 625 HE.A-So as not to compete with
the 600OK.B-And my design of belted case from BMG
brass has better taper and a better shape to the
powder charge in the 700..C-Might as well have the hairiest- It holds up to 310 gr of dense ball powder,It will get the 1000 gr bullet to over 3200 fps.Straight taper belted case( and from my experience with 458 HE) loaded at 2500 fps for
example, the brass will reload over 100 times.No shoulder to work.I will make the 700 brass myself,
and be ready to send cases in a few weeks, and they will have our headstamp.We have figured a way to get our stamp on it.Will get Rob some for his 12 guage from hell he wants to build in a few weeks.And we are also talking to folks getting the lined for the 458 HE run of brass.Ed..

GUYS, GET THE WADERS, THIS IS REALLY DEEP

K-Mule;I know you like short cartridges.But
we all have fun doing it different.The
pictures show the results of my hobby.And
I will try to get others interested.Ed.

Ed - please stop, I believe I have broken some ribs from laughing so much at your fantasies - thanks - KMule

What is the problem??I developed cartridges,
and going to get factory run made on one of them.And I figured a way to make the brass for the other.Kind of factual, not a fantasy.Those
pictures and all my work and load testing wasn't
computor generated, it is real.Ed.

Ed,

From your top post I gather the case is about 3.5" long and larger by a couple of grains than the 460 Wby, is that correct.

In other words is it like a 458 Winchester with about 1 inch of case added.

Mike

Mike-Yes it is 3.45 in long/It has the same taper
as the 458 , only extended backward, so the base is bigger, .527 compared to .512 for 458Win.Ed.

Ed

I would reckon a 1 inch section of case that was around .458 inner diameter would hold 40 grains of powder.

A fired 460 case with 115 grains of 4350 will let 500 grain Hornady drop a bit down below the cannelure. Also, being a bottle neck there is some space around the very bottom of the bullet

A 458 would be about the same with around 68 to 70 grains.

I having a hard time seeing that your case is bigger than the 460 case.

Mike

Mike-It only has 3 gr more water capicity.Not
hardly a difference. Will hold 120 gr of 4350
with case crimped in cannelure.Compressed.
With bullet out a liitle from your load.Being single shot length no problem.As I explained in post before it is the shape that gives advantage,
as I can use faster ball powders( don't care for
stick powders), but that get to peak pressure slower than powders can be used in bottle-neck 460 cases,but because the ball powders are 10% heavier with more energy per grain, we make a big gain.130 plus grains of WW-760 does the job, H-414 also.The amount of energy under the curve if
you graph it, is larger, and that is really all that determines energy out the barrel.Slower time to peak pressure, peak pressure lower, but over all average pressure curve is taller for the length of the combustion time.Ed.

Ed

A 458 Win or 458 Lott with Win 748 according to your theory should equal or surpass 460 Wby velocity potential, given that your wildcat is much faster than the 460

Mike

Mike--If you use same barrel length and ball powder, the Lott is 93% as good as Weatherby.
Lott will hold about 95 grains of ball powder.
When I run the formula it gets between 2430 and
2470 fps , 500 gr bulletThere used to be a good slower ball,H-450 I think,
that could get Weatherby to an honest 2700.One
of Hodgdons I think.Ed.