If one were to invest in a double rifle for a couple of African Dangerous Game Hunts, what pick would be the best for reliability of function, durability over the long haul (hand down to offspring, i.e. son, grandson, grandaughter, nephew)? All grades being equal would the Scearcy, Merkel, Kreighoff, or J.P. Sauer be the best investment in a .470 Nitro caliber? Im sure the "you say potato; I say pahtahto" comes in here, but I'm seeing guys cuss Kreighoff for their poor workmanship. I don't see it other than the ugly rear sight and not too nice wood. The engraving on the Merkel looks like an eight grade art student did it. Realizing the ones I refer to are the "working man's" basic bare bones double, for my money the Scearcy seems to lead the pack. If I could squeeze the extra pennies then the J.P. Sauer would be my choice. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Again my intent here is only for enlightment and not to start WW III. Thanks, Mike

Get a British double. Some of the new made doubles are fine hunting rifles, but any time you use the words "Investment", or "hand down", a British rifle is the best choice.

defintly a searcy unless you have the money to afford a holland and holland but if you want a top of the line fine rifle that is made to last and hunt hard you cant beat a searcy.

I've got a Searcy .470 Ph Field Grade it's a good strong rifle. But like .450 already said the investment value is stronger in an old english double.

I'm not sure that "investment value" still holds. Certainly if you had grabbed a good Britisher back about the time B.E.L.L. started making brass for them you would have seen your money go upwards quickly. Now, I dunno. You might check with Ray or Mac who buy and sell frequently, but I'm not seeing the price on working grade doubles increasing much since double rifles have come back into manufacture again. Of course, it's still beyond my price range (so far . . .) but what cost $9-10,000 five to seven years ago still seems to bring $9-10,000. Not much capital gain there. IMH(Mauser action)O, just buy a good Searcy to use and leave your descendents real estate or Blue Chip stocks. They're a lot more reliable.

If you want a rifle to pass to the kids than a good used Brit rifle is the only alternative. You will never get your money back on a 'New' rifle, of any make, and neither will your children. Just like buying a new truck or a new car.

There are a few people on this forum that have a lot of experience in buying, selling and shooting things with Double Rifles. There are many more who have one and have limited expertise to make judgements with.

Someday, I'll own a Searcy double. Right now, I have two English doubles and really enjoy them, but there is a lot to say for the fact that Butch is still alive and reachable by phone, while Mr. Jeffery or Mr. Army & Mr. Navy are quite dead.



Here is one for sale at Champlin Arms that intrigues me:

.450 Nitro 3 /14"

I'm a sucker for that caliber, though, it being the "original".. or at least my favorite.



There is also value in being able to buy ammo over the counter if you buy a modern .470. I probably could have "hand load" regulated my .475 Nitro much quicker with some experience, but folks like Searcy and Chapuis will give you a target showing the load and regulation. Butch will even regulate for whatever (safe) ammo you send him. Using monolithic solids is also an option that doesn't exist with European rifles, old or new. Also, there is a thread on another site where a guy talks about shooting his Searcy 6000 times with it still "on the fact". Wow!



Here's a picture of a Cogswell & Harrison just like mine:



Just like my double



Ray Atkinson has had several English guns. I doubt he ever lost a penny on one, but I've yet to see a Searcy that's had a depreciation of more than 15%, even pretty well used.



I guess I'm just rambling, but I find it hard to find a reason not to buy an English gun, then an American one, maybe a Francotte later, then a Sauer, but who has to eat?



Here is Butch's site:

Searcy Field Grade

I believe ALL the brands you list are quite up to your requirements. I don't know about the new ones, but I have a J.P. Sauer SXS in 8X60RS that was built some time before 1912, and it is still able to keep my handloaded 200-grain Nosler Partition ammo in a 3" pattern, R&L, at 100 yards (1X-4X Leupold in claw mounts). Hard to beat that kind of durability. It also still looks pretty good for such an old contraption!

When I made exactly the same decision I looked at some of the German doubles and also the vintage English.

The price difference of the German doubles wasn't enough so I went with history and bought an English double.. Its nice to have a rifle that has already "lived" and I plan to leave it to future generations.

You need to decide if your interest is in using the rifle and then having your children and grandchildren use the rifle as well.

If that is your measure or merit and not necessarily the long term increase in value if carefully maintained ... then the Searcy is definitely worth considering! I fully expect my kids to enjoy shooting mine.

Wish you luck with the choice.

Four Tails, I faced this choice in early 2002. Here is what I went through:



1. Heym. Light and slim, but too expensive ($12,500 back then) and rather plain.



2. Krieghoff. I hate the cocking piece/safety since it is slow for me to operate, and in a charge slow is not a good thing. These were going for $8K.



3. Merkel. These are built on a 20 gauge shotgun, so they are not the stoutest design. Some Merkel lovers love them. Others report instances of doubling and the rifle going off face. Merkel was the cheapest of the bunch at $6600 on sale.



4. Rigby (California). This is a Merkel 20 gauge shotgun, but with a nicer stock. I like the way the Rigby fits, but in substance it is just a Merkel. These were going for $19,500.



5. Vintage English gun. For under $20K, you run the risk of getting a pretty ratty old specimen. Some guys cannot get their guns to regulate or to hit on target and have to have them re-regulated. Others have to send the action out for re-working. It's really a pig in a poke. The safest bet is to get one that has been reworked by an expert, but for that you are looking at $25K-$75K. And forget about investment value or giving it to your grandkids. The double market is about as high as it has ever been and there are almost no good deals out there. Your grandkids would be better off with $20K in a well-run stock market index fund, and 40 years from now they can buy a double and two new cars.



6. Searcy. These are stout, reliable rifles very nicely executed. It is what I ended up buying even though the wait was substantially longer than the wait for a Merkel, Heym, Rigby or Krieghoff. Mine shoots very well, balances nicely and is a pleasure to look at. These guns are a bargain.



As far as resale, the day I paid a deposit on my $7K Searcy, Cabelas had a used one for $8K. Identical gun. Reason for the higher price? The one at Cabelas was immediately available, but I had to wait for mine to be made.



Presently used Searcy field grade rifles are selling at $8500 retail, so if I decided to sell mine (which I won't), I think I would make money rather than lose money.



A Searcy PH model for $9500:

I have owned a truck load of British rifles, both doubles and bolt guns...I have not seen a lot of increase in the field guns, but the hi dollar guns are a great investment..

But I have to tell you it is bloody hard to find a good English gun, most of them have been mucked up and refinished a dozen times, many are simply junk, so you had better know your business when you buy an English gun..

Right now I also have a new Searcy PH model and it is the best shooting gun I have owned in my life at 50 yards bar none...It is a using gun and Butch is not in competition with Britten, he makes the best using gun in the world, not a collectors gun....

I would like to know who feels good sending a fine collectable British gun on any airline to Africa. That is a recipe for disaster.

Also the Searcy can shoot monolithics of any make all day long, a British gun cannot...The searcy can send a 500 gr. bullet at 2245 FPS, and I would not do this with a British rifle where I always stopped at anything over 2100...That is a substantial differnce in velocity with a 500 gr. bullet, and a great increase in killing power I guess.

At any rate this is the opine I have come to believe over the years of using them, for what its worth..

Fourtrails,



To tell ya the truth of the matter, if you want an investment, buy stocks or CDs.



I bought my 450/400 3 inch in '96 for 8K. To replace that rifle today (NIB) it would take 14-16K. I could probably only get around 10K if I sold it. Now that's the long way around to tell you that you just need to find a double you like and can afford and go buy it!



I have a safe full of guns and most aren't worth anything but the memories that I have attached to them. If you buy a double shoot it and share those experiences with your family, when you pass it down to your sons/daughters the value of the rifle will be irreplaceable to them.



After all that is what this is all about, good memories, good times shared with those we respect and love!



Just my opine.