I just recently returned from Zim on a Buffalo/Leopard combo hunt. For the Buff, I was using my .404 Jeffery.

From all the conversation on this, and other, boards about the resurgence of the 404, I was taken back by the reaction of every PH I ran into: they had never had a client hunt with one!To a man, each wanted to know about the cartridge, how it performed, how much the rifle cost, how much was ammo, how do you get ammo, etc. Genereally, they were amazed that an American would show up in Africa carrying a rifle of a caliber they considered "legendary."

Unfortunately, since I lost my buffalo, I couldn't point to its devestating effect on game. All I could do was quote my "paper" ballistics. It made for great conversation.

I believe that with the introduction of the CZ in 404, they will soon be more accustomed to the caliber. For now, however, it's a curiosity.

On our last buff hunt in Zim, N'gagi's PH, Mike Payne, carried an old 404 Jeffery. It was made on a standard sized mauser by one of the English makers (I forgot who). It only had iron sights, but seemed to handle really well.

My PH, Ian Gibson, said that they usually keep an old 404 Jeffery in camp as an extra rifle, but it was back in Harare when we were there. I would love to find a way to bring on of those old rifles back.

It seemed like most of the PH's (from HHK & Big 5) we were around were familiar with the 404 Jeffery. I am currently having a 404 built on a 1909 Argentine M98 and plan on taking it with me for buff in 2006.

Tim

I had a sim. exp. in Moz. last year. Most of the PHs in camp were in their late 20s so not too surprising. They all though it a most impressive killing tool though.

Most PHs I've met were not gun cranks. They used what was practical and economical.

My PH in Tanzania carried a .404. I wasn't impressed, either. He put a solid up the tailpipe of my buff at one point; the bullet stopped after a foot of penetration. When the trackers dug it out, it was bent at a 90 degree angle midway down the shank.
I realize that was a bullet failure, but that would have been of little consolation if the buff had gotten away (I kept shooting until it went down).

George

Having shoot a lot of Buffalo with the 404, I can tell you it as good as a 416 Rem or Rigby, and bullet failure does not have a thing to do with caliber..I can drive a 404 Solid completely through a Buffalo lengthwise on ocassions and alway to the front shoulder or neck...

I cannot imagine a PH that knows nothing about a 404 Jefferys, must be kids just out of PH school, It was the issue rifle of many game depts. for many years and still is one of the issue calibers in Tanzania. all wonderful FNs and it terrible condition! .....

It is probably the best of the 40 calibers IMO and apparantly increasing in popularity and with the advent of newer calibers on that old case, brass and bullets will forever be available...

I didn't say they didn't know anything at all about the cartridge. Just that none of them had ever had a client hunt with one. In fact, one of them, Peter Gavin, owned and hunted with a 404.

And yes, they were young whippersnappers, compared to you and me. But, then again, most folks are young whippersnappers when compared to you and me.

Oh man is that a true statement! Yeah, the youngsters want a .416rem!

Ray, the 404 is OK and has a lot of history, but, to call it the equal of the 416 Rigby is a stretch of the imagination that has Taylor spinning in his grave! Your experience may be good, but that don't prove a thing! Bell would have told you the 7X57 was just as good as the 470 on elephant, in his opinion. So what?

JoeR,

I believe Ray's 404 has a 26" barrel and he loads a 400 grain bullet to 2,400 fps. Many people load the 404 to 2,300 - 2,400 fps.

The .416 Rigby is was traditionally loaded to approx. 2,350 fps with a 400 grain bullet. Don't get me wrong, you can hot rod the 416 Rigby up quite a bit. However, many people shoot a 400 grain bullet out of both of these at between 2,300 - 2,400 fps. Now, you get a bit better SD with a 400 grain .416" bullet. But the 400 grain .423" bullet of the Jeffery gives a bit more frontal area.

Pretty much equal and a lot different than comparing the 7x57 to the 470 NE.

Tim

The ballistics of the .404 can be acheived with either the .416 rem or Rigby but the .404 has a certain charm to it and I like Shumba am having one built on a 1909 m98 not because I need it but because it has a lot of History attached ot it.

No bad on the .404 Jeffery whatsoever, no flies, tsetse or otherwise.

With my M70 24" or CZ 550 25" great loads as follows, all with Varget Extreme from Oz by way of Hodgdon:

400 grainers: 2400 to 2425 fps
380 grainers: 2525 to 2550 fps
340 grainers: 2700 to 2725 fps

Varget charge ranges from 80.0 to 87.6 grains, depending on bullet.

I am a reformed .416 Rigby lover.

RIP,

seriouslly which do you feel is superior the .404 or the .416 Rigby if you had to choose one or the other now which would you have and why ??

I think the 404 offers the best package to deliver a 400 gr. bullet at reasonable and useful velocities. The 416 Rem.delivers its 400gr. bullet at near maximum pressure and at 2400 f/s. You can not safely push it much further without possible mechanical failure. Many feel it is too hot as it is being loaded now. The 416 Rigby has much more case capacity than is needed for the job, requires an expensive oversized action(major detractor).It has a lot of nostalgia about it and opperates at good and low pressure and has a modern almost improved case design without a magnum belt. The 404 Jeffery has the perfect case capacity for the 400 gr. bullet and at moderate low pressure. It can be fired out of a modified standard action or any action that was developed for any of the long magnum cartridges which is very common. The case has a long neck to hold the bullet secure under recoil and a gradual sloping sholder to gurantee exellent extraction. Finally, a non- belted magnum case that has become popular again, a feature it shares with the Rigby. For me, the true value in the 404 round is it's ability to function very well regardless of the velocity. From the original loading at 2125 f/s to the souped up velocities of those that like to push things to the limit at 2600 f/s you can pick your poison and the recoil level that you can handle! It can be made up on a lighter and handier package you can easily cary all day long. The 400 Jeffery-the GITT'ER DONE gun!

Joe,
I couldn't say it any better than LB404 stated it....

The 404, 416 Rem. and 416 Rigby are all equal cartridges IMO..and a 100 FPS difference in any caliber ain't squat in the hunting field..

If, however, you think your 416 Rigby is far and away superior to the 404 or 416 Rem., then by all means that is the cartridge you should use...

PC,
What lb404 and Atkinson said.
If I had to choose between the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby, I would pick ...

The .416 Dakota.

Ray, I never said the Rigby is far and away superior to the 404, I just said it's a bit of a stretch to call them equal in game situations. As to 100-200 fps having no difference to the game, I recall you having a significantly different opinion wrt that statement when the object of discussion is another favorite of mine, the 458WM!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
PC,
What lb404 and Atkinson said.
If I had to choose between the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby, I would pick ...

The .416 Dakota.

RIP you don't need to fill my head with other cartridges I don't own as mostly I am forced to aquire a rifle in that chamberingI am