Gentlemen

I am interested in your thoughts on the following.

404 Jeffery, 400 gr appx at 2170, 41 ft/pds recoil in 9.5 pound rifle, with the possibility of loading 300 gr for PG, ammo a bit tough to find, especially if lost in transit. Things look good for some factory loadings soon, but otherwise handloaded or special order.

Rifles in this caliber are hard to find, and usually command a premium price.

458 WM- factory loads in 400 softs and 500 solids, plenty available, 400 gr at 2100 recoil 44 ft/pds, 500 gr at 1950 53, in a 9 pd rifle, can also handload 300 gr for PG

LOTS of nice rifles around that seem to be to sell at a real discount compared to other DG rifles. Very likely to find ammo if in Africa and lose luggage etc ( as likely as any other caliber, that is).

So, for someone looking for a big stick for ele, the 458 would be nice and has lots of nice rifles available for good prices.

What is wrong with going with the 458, apart from my moniker, nostalgia, and the fact I already have 2 404js?

I too find myself with two .404 J's and no true big bore. The biggest reason I don't have something in .458 is that I'm saving that true big bore slot in the safe for a double one of these years.

Dean

In the 458wm it is easy to load 500grs at 2135fps and more. You can buy Hornaday factory ammo advertised at 2260fps for their 500gr solids and softs too. Some find it shoots to advertised velocity some don't, either way its way beyond the tried and true 450NE performance which is proven for more than a century.

If elephants are your game than the 458 is a much superior choice, imo. But the 404 will get the job done. Take away elephants and you take away the advantaged of the 458wm, except for the ammo issue.

For those big bore doubters, I stopped another charging ele with a 458wm and a less than perfect brain shot. This time a bull at eight yards. That was May 12th.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If elephants are your game than the 458 is a much superior choice, imo. But the 404 will get the job done. Take away elephants and you take away the advantaged of the 458wm, except for the ammo issue. JPK

Ditto's JPK, and the added double on the double 1000 grains of stopping power again present objective favor to a double in tight situations. By the way, do you pull the front trigger first on your double or the rear trigger first?

My question/doubt/whatever about the .458 Win Mag is, because the powder tends to be compressed with the 500 and 510 grain bullets, would this shortcoming become a potential overpressure issue?

However, I do like the fact that the .458 WM can be downloaded for a number of different uses, even as a brush cartridge for US hunting. From what I observe, the .458 is potentially the more versatile cartridge. (Even though the .404 is a nostalgic favorite.)

Dirk,

You should know that it was only 900grs since I shoot North Fork flat nose solids!

And apparently, I pull neither the front nor the rear trigger first.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
My question/doubt/whatever about the .458 Win Mag is, because the powder tends to be compressed with the 500 and 510 grain bullets, would this shortcoming become a potential overpressure issue?

However, I do like the fact that the .458 WM can be downloaded for a number of different uses, even as a brush cartridge for US hunting. From what I observe, the .458 is potentially the more versatile cartridge. (Even though the .404 is a nostalgic favorite.)

No issues with overpressure and compressed loads so long as you stick to the manuals. Compression does not lead to overpressure and has not a thing to do with it.

Also, you can get excellent velocity without compressed loads with a couple of powders, AA2230 being one.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
By the way, do you pull the front trigger first on your double or the rear trigger first?

Well, that made my day!

A 458 WM is a bigger hammer than the Jeffery. But it is needed? Probably doesn't matter, but if I had to pick just one, it would be the .....

Load the 458 500gr. bullet to 2150 fps in a 22" barrel at relatively low pressure is getting to be monotonously mundane these days. It is the reason for "The Survival of the 458 Win. Mag.," coming soon in a book near you.

quote:

No issues with overpressure and compressed loads so long as you stick to the manuals. Compression does not lead to overpressure and has not a thing to do with it.

Good! I don't know where I got that idea from, but it's been at the back of my mind for a while.

quote:

A 458 WM is a bigger hammer than the Jeffery. But it is needed? Probably doesn't matter, but if I had to pick just one, it would be the .....

I think I'm in the same boat. I can't choose either.

A .458 is a 'proper' DG round. A .404 Jeffery is more of an 'all-around' cartridge.

If you're going to make a habit of hunting elephant, a .458 is a better choice, as a 500gr. solid should penetrate better than a 400gr., all things being equal.

George

If you have a .303 and a .404 you don't need no more...

The .404 is one of the best rounds for dangerous African game ever invented, and I will not trade mine for a .458, no matter what. My reloads (from pre-WWII Cogswell & Harrison Mauser) easily do 2 300 ft/sec and shoot straight through almost everything, including the skull of a big, tuskless elephant bull.

I had a .458 for a short while but found reloading for it too much of a hassle with local powders. Perhaps US powders are better, but for my money I'll stick with the .404.In the .458 category I'll rather go straight to the Lott, which is a considerable step up in performance.

Just my opinion.

quote:

pre-WWII Cogswell & Harrison Mauser

I don't know about the prices, but Cogswell & Harrison seem to have good customer support for even their older rifles:

http://www.cogswell.co.uk/repair.htm

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
A .458 is a 'proper' DG round. A .404 Jeffery is more of an 'all-around' cartridge.

If you're going to make a habit of hunting elephant, a .458 is a better choice, as a 500gr. solid should penetrate better than a 400gr., all things being equal.

George

Ditto, well said George.

My 458 wm loaded with gs flatnose solids worked well enough on my elephant last year. want to us it on a buff or hippo this year, if we get to return.

The 416 Rigby built it's reputation on 410 grain bullets fired at 2350 fps (truth be told, it was probably closer to 2250 fps). Penetration was the key to the 416 Rigby's reputation. Those 410 grain 416 bullet had an SD of .338.

The 404 Jeffery got the job done, but it never really had a reputation for penetration. That was probably its greatest shortcoming. The slightly larger bore (.423") of the 404 Jeffery really deserves a heavier bullet than 400 grains. Woodleigh now makes just such a bullet (soft and solid) in 450 grains. The SD of this heavier bullet is a whopping .361.

It'll be easier to push a 450 gr. bullet at 2350 fps from a 404 Jeffery than it is to push a 500 grain bullet at 2150 from a 458 Win Mag. That 500 grain 458 bullet has an SD of .341. I'd much prefer the 404 with 450 grain bullets than a 458 WM with 400 grain bullets in any dangerous game situation.

We all know there's more to killing power than sectional density alone. The larger frontal area of a 458 bullet really puts the thump on larger animals. However, a tough, heavy bullet with high SD (like a .423 cal 450 grain) is going to whistle clear through just about anything that walks.

quote:

404J vs 458 WM

The 458 is more the 404 is less..

There is abit more to it than caliber. Shootability comes into it as well. A 400gr/42 caliber bullet @ 2200fps penetrates well but recoil is managable in a 10# rifle. A 500gr bullets @ 2200fps in the same weight rifle starts to punish me & I can't comfortably shoot it from any angle. No flys on the old 458winmag though & w/ todays bullets, it's even more versatile.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK: You can buy Hornaday factory ammo advertised at 2260fps for their 500gr solids and softs too. Some find it shoots to advertised velocity some don't, either way its way beyond the tried and true 450NE performance which is proven for more than a century.
JPK

I saw a consistent 2,150 fps out of this ammo from my CZ .458 Lott.

JPK -- where is the hunt report??

You guys that claim using modern powders in the .458 is the cure all must have never checked the load density of your own loads at those velocities...Not a load in the Swift manual, which gives load density will get you the velocities you claim. You simply cannot get 2100 FPS with out going over 100% load density and the rest is

Over 100% load density is compaction and compaction has been the problem with the .458 since its birth and it has caused problems for decades, yet some can't seem to swallow that.

Check out the Swift loading manual for one...Wake up America the .458 is a piss poor example of a big bore rifle.

74 rains of 4895 under a 500 grain bullet gave me 2110 FPS out of a Whitworth 458 and I never had a single proiblem and that is a fact..

Barnes Manual #3 says 60 Grains RL-7 = 2208 FPS

I'm guessing ther's someone lurking in the shadows here that's topped 2300 FPS in a 458 Win Mag. with a 500 grain bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You guys that claim using modern powders in the .458 is the cure all must have never checked the load density of your own loads at those velocities...Not a load in the Swift manual, which gives load density will get you the velocities you claim. You simply cannot get 2100 FPS with out going over 100% load density and the rest is

Over 100% load density is compaction and compaction has been the problem with the .458 since its birth and it has caused problems for decades, yet some can't seem to swallow that.

Check out the Swift loading manual for one...Wake up America the .458 is a piss poor example of a big bore rifle.

As ussual Ray, you are stuck in the past. Try loading the 458wm with today's powders.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with compressed loads with today's powders anyway. Try this yourself too. Wouldn't want to keep them on the loading bench for a decade, but the 458wm and many other cartridges fair fine with compressed loads. Not needed in the 458wm to acheive more than sufficient velocity with the 500's but to get to top end, near 2250fps with 500's, which is nice but not neccesary, you would need to compress the charge. But even that is easy with no drop tubes or other trouble. Just charge the case and tap it on the bench.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
74 rains of 4895 under a 500 grain bullet gave me 2110 FPS out of a Whitworth 458 and I never had a single proiblem and that is a fact..

This velocity with the 500's outshines the typical real world performance of the tried and true, 100+ year old benchmark, the 450NE 3 1/4".

Pointing to the 458's love of longer barrels, I get 2145fps from 500 Woodleighs with 72.5grs. My barrels are 26".

JPK

Wasn't the .450 3 1/4 and the .450 No. 2 rated at 2,150? Wasn't this also with a 30-inch test barrel? So, I have a hard time believing that the win mag even in its original loadings wasn't in the same ball park.......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Wan't the .450 3 1/4 and the .450 No. 2 rated at 2,150? Wasn't this also with a 30-inch test barrel? So, I have a hard time believing that the win mag even in its original loadings wasn't in the same ball park.......

Ditto, you hit it on the nail head.