The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores CZ 589 - 458 W. Mag O/U Double?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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While looking for a CZ 550 American, I came across a different animal - the CZ 589 "Stopper" 458 Win Mag Over/Under double http://pdmall.com/CZC/rifles~3.htm about 1/3 of the way down the page. Never saw anything like that before. I'd imagine you could turn one if these into a 458 Lott double, couldn't you, Ray? R-WEST ------------------ | ||
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R-WEST, what chambering are you getting the CZ 550 American with? These are very fine rifles, and with only a little tweeking here and there, they are as good as it gets, for all practical purposes! The stack barrel 458 has only two draw backs. #1 it is chambered for 458 Win Mag, this or any other rimless cartridge is not well suited to a double rifle, especially a stopper! # 2 it is a stack barrel, also not well suited to dangerous game use. The best thing that one could do with this rifle is send it to JJ Perodeau at Champlin Arms for re-chambering to 450 #2 NE, and re-regulate to this round. This still doesn't change the fact that this rifle is a O/U. The 458 LOTT, could be done on this rifle, but it wouldn't be any better than the 458 Win Mag in a double rifle. the 458 Win Mag is already too high in chamber pressure, and is a belted rimless round either way. Either of these rounds are better suited to bolt actions, and even with a 450#2 NE, a rimmed case, still doesn't negate the O/U not being well suited to dangerous game stopping! The 550 chambered for 458 win mag would be a great candidate for a 458 LOTT change over, and is , IMO , about the top choice for that project! All just my opinion, however! ------------------ | |||
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I doubt that openning it up to a 458 Lott would be healthy besides it would cost a lot to re-regulate it and you could buy a good double for the difference... I don't want any rimless cartridge in any double... ------------------ | |||
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quote: Todd, Champlin's specializes in re-chambering 458 Win Mag doubles to 450#2NE and re-regulateing. This is right down JJ's alley! The cost of the rifle,the re-chambering,and re-regulateing isn't worth the trouble on an O/U rifle, IMO! ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Mac, I wasn't lying when I said I have spoken with them. On the two occasions I spoke with them they seem to have an issue with the fact that the rifles I wanted worked on were full length ribbed. In other words there was a file fit rib running the entire length of the barrels. This rib is soldered in place so in order for Champlin's to re-regulate they would need to file fit and full length solder the barrels. I insist on full length ribs on my quality double rifles. This feature by the way vastly reduces the effects of barrels heating up as it provides a heat sink. One of the the rifles I spoke with them about was a Pedersoli 45-70 rechamber to 450 NE. The other was an older Belgium gun. Their tone was that these weapons were not worthy of modification and should be left as is. Their reason was as I stated above, that being the difficulty of regulating a double rifle with a full length soldered in place rib. I cannot recall any quality double rifle that was not so equipped. Perhaps they just are too busy and that was their excuse for not taking on more business. Either way I was not overly impressed with Champlin's. They are not the same outfit they were 20 years ago. With a proper soldering oven regulating is not all that difficult, although it is time consuming. I would not rechamber the CZ589. I would use it as is. It would be a beater. Why do you say an O/U is not a good stopper? [This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-11-2002).] | ||
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I would appreciate it also if someone could explain why an o/u wouldnt make a good stopper rifle. I dont know to much about s/s's let alone o/u. Thanks for educating the uneducated (This isnt a smart ass remark either its the truth). | |||
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I BELIEVE THE REASON J.J. AT CHAMPLINS WILL NOT RECHAMBER OR RE-REGULATE THE BRANDS OF DOUBLES SPOKE OF HERE, IS BECAUSE OF THE TYPE OF SOLDER USED TO MAKE THESE DOUBLES. I THINK HE SAID IT WAS HIGH TEMPERATURE, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT,DO NOT REMEMBER EXACTLY. I HAVE SEEN BRAND NEW DOUBLE RIFLE BARRELS HE HAS MADE, AND I HAVE HAD HIM DO WORK FOR ME . I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS. WHEN KYNOCH QUIT LOADING DOUBLE RIFLE AMMO, MANY GUN MAKERS INCLUDING HOLLAND AND HOLLAND MADE 458 DOUBLES. THESE CAN BE RECHAMBERED AND RE-REGULATED FOR ONE OF THE ORIGINAL 450 NITRO CTGS. I TOO, AM LEARY OF NON RIMMED CTGS. FOR DOUBLES. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE WHO HAS USED ONE A FAIR AMOUNT. | |||
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The O/U boogaboo is that extracting/ejecting and reloading requires a wider swing open to clear the bottom chamber and reload, and is a bit slower and more gremlin prone in the heat of battle if you have to reload in a hurry. This is a fact that is not merely academic. Likewise, the rimless extractor/ejector is more prone to the gremlins than the solid function of a rimmed cartridge. Likewise, the 458 Winnie is straining itself red in the face to get up to snuff with the low pressure Nitro Express rounds. The O/U 458 Winnie is not Kosher. My O/U, single trigger 338 Winnie loaded to 2500 fps with 250 grain bullets and RL-22 is an interesting oddball for iron sight shooting, but none of the O/U rifles are taken seriously if the game bites back. ------------------ | |||
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MacD37 - The 550 is a 9.3x62. I've been hearing such great things about it that I just had to try one. ToddE - Talked to Phil at The Gun Shop http://pdmall.com/CZC/cz~1.htm and he said HE doesn't have any (he has to buy 20 at a time and he doesn't have 20 prospective sales lined up), but, he said to call CZ-USA 1-800-955-4486 and see if they can find one for you somewhere else, if you're interested. R-WEST ------------------ | |||
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quote: #1 The reason they didn't want to re-do your rifles was because of the strength is suspect, I would think. there is big difference in re-chambering something that was factory chambered for a 50,000 lbs pressure round, to something that only developes 35,000 lbs, than from a small 30,000 lb cartridge, to a large one that developes 35,000 lbs. I know they will not rechamber a Pedersoli because they say it isn't strong enough. A lot of Belgeon rifles are of very poor quality steel. That, however, doesn't mean your's is, but that may be their reason. #2 #3 The double rifle should always be a rimmed cartridge rifle, PERIOD! The first thing is double rifle design, though made today, is still 19th century technoligy, and is not well suited to 50,000 lbs of chamber pressure. A 450 NE 3.25" will do anything the 458 Win Mag will do, better,and only generate only about 35,000 lbs of chamber pressure, and has rim to facilitate extraction/ejection! The O/U is not suited to stopping use for several reasons. One is, the O/U rifle is regulated to shoot the bottom barrel first,and as Andre' says to shoot the top barrel first plays hell with the grouping, and to reload for follow up, one must break the rifle very wide to reload the bottom barrel. If both the barrels are fired before a re-load, the afore mentioned wide break is necessary to reload, and the re-load is clumsy, because of the barrels being stacked, the "TWO ROUNDS BETWEEN THE FIRST, AND SECOND, AND BETWEEN THE SECOND, AND THIRD FINGERS, are naturally horizontal, while the barrels are perpendicular. Top this off with the fact that in a S/S the weight of the cartridge is resting on the extractor/ejector, where on an O/U the natural weight of the cartridge pulls it down, and away from the BOTTOM extractor, sometimes letting the case , especially a rimless cartridge, slip behind the extractor. Imagine, haveing a cartridge behind the bottom extractor, being unable to close the rifle, with a Cape buffalo closeing on you fast! All this is not just my opinion, but the conscesus of many people who are double rifle users, and makers. These facts are the direct reason most O/U double rifles are chambered for deer type cartridges, and very few are chambered for DGR cartridges! The use of a rimless cartridge in ANY double rifle, be it S/S, or O/U has to be loade very dileberately, and isn't suitable to re-loading with you eyes on the animal you are fighting. One must make sure the rounds are proper sittuated in relation to the extractors before closeing the rifle, not good when in a tight spot! Of course you my do as you please, it's your money, and your butt! On the Pedersoli thing I have one re-chambered for 458 RCBS a rimmed case 2.75" long, and loaded with a 400 gr bullet with 65.0 grs of IMR 4064 powder, for 2150 fps, and the cases simply fall out of the barrels when the rifle it tipped up, no sign of pressure at all, and I would think the chamber pressure of the 458 RCBS is higher than a 450NE 3.25". One thought is to install a third fastener in the form of a doll's head. There are other people who will rechamber your Pedersoli to 450 NE 3.25" ------------------ [This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-12-2002).] | |||
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| <Cobalt> |
R-West, I also purchased the 550 in 9.3x62 and subsequently rechambered it to 9.3x64. What a sweet rifle! I was able to look through about 6 specimens and choose the best wood. Very pleased, to say the least. Cobalt | ||
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Cobalt - It should be here sometime next week. I can't wait!! R-WEST | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Mac, Strength was never mentioned in either of our conversations. The Belgium double was a Francotte. I have seen many british made doubles with full length ribs. I would like to thank you for your excellent dissertation regarding the four piece rib design, which is much more prevalent on more modern doubles. Unfortunately, I was fully aware of this and this seems to be Champlin's preferred set-up to work with. The advantage of ribs only at the breech and muzzle is that these two relatively short surfaces are all that need to be dresses to adjust the POI (regulation). The two additional parts are simply covers. This approach causes excessive heat distortion of the barrels since heat is only transfered at the breech (hottest part of the gun) and the muzzle. The thermal expansion of the barrels then causes them to bow. REGULATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. IT IS SIMPLY POOR CRAFTSMANSHIP! I do not care who's name is stamped in the barrel. Todd E | ||
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