Is it me or is there a true increase in interest in this cartridge and the replica style of gun now. And do people think it will be just a passing fad or a somewhat longterm trend in interest? It certainly has my interest, but not really for a hunting need.

How can you call something that has been around for 130 yrs a passing fad?

That some people are just now discovering them for the first time is only to say they have been duped by too many gun rags and advertisements.

Smokeless powder and copper bullets, now there's a passing fad

Brent

It is a fad that has been going on since Marlin re-introduced their lever with the microgroove barrel in the 70's. That being said, there is a certain limiting factor in use and a lot of guys who try to hunt with them have not all been happy. In order to get max performance, you have to handload or use Garrett's or BuffaloBore. With the rifle weighing in at 7# and change, the recoil scares the shit out of most shooters and they go to the underpowered 405 JSP loadings at 1300 or the 300 JSP/JHP load going out at 1800. I firmly believe that the bullet has to penetrate from one side to the other. None of the loads mentioned above will do so. Everything I've shot in the past that was under 400# has gone down with their legs splayed out like the hammer of Thor hitting them. If I know I am going after something much bigger, I have much bigger guns. Since the Cowboy shooting started, I think that it will continue on for many more years. Any gun sport that caters to families can't be all bad.

I got Sharps replica's in 40/65, 45/70 & 50/70. A rollin block in 45/70. Shootin these, I never had so much fun in all my life!

Aren't you into that funny looking and smelling black stuff? Using lead stuff too?

I also think they are neat, but not neat enough to get one. My biggest problem with the whole deal is the claims of the fervent fans that claim to the 45-70 power that it simply does not have.

I settled on another 458 Lott. I can always download it to 45-70 levels with ease. There is no way to make the 45-70 grow up and become an honest to goodness elephant gun.

I think the whole SASS thing will die down with time. It is like any sport or activity that the masses latch onto and make popular. There is the core group that was there before, and be there after they are gone.

I know of some guys that were interested in sass stuff and got flack about not dressing the part. Say What? These particular individuals were being elitist and, in the their own pea-brain minds, true believers. I know a lot of people having fun at quite a few shoots. I never bought into it but who's gonna argue with the present success.

Dressing in 'period' clothing is part of the charm of the game for some folks. Some events have a stricter dress code than others, especially for competitors.

George

I was early into SASS and had a ball! Still go to the big shoots! Heck its Haloween with Guns and Gals! What could be better than that?-Rob

Yeah, I use only lead and real gun powder.

Works now and again too...
My bullets and a few results.

I don't do the funny clothes stuff, and there is a lot of competition where jeans and ball cap or flannel wool and a boller, or cowboy boots and a stetson are all equally welcome. The shooting is quite serious as well as popular.

Mostly though, I hunt. I have no use for smokeless powder in anything except .22 rf and I'm working on fixin' that . Might just as well use an RPG as far as I'm concerned. Obviously, the rank and file here differ.

Nope, a .45-70 is not a .458 Lott and I know no one that says it is. But, for those that can, and those that will, a .45 of one sort or another has always managed to work. It is pretty funny watching the hostility directed towards the round here though.

Brent

What could be better than that? Hot and cold running women !! Not to mention a couple of Kegs on tap.

Paul H : For us hunters: It's not the cartridge alone - it's the combination of a nifty carbine and a cartridge launching a big chunk of lead. For the Quigley-wannabes: It's an inherently accurate cartridge driving a large bullet through billowy, white clouds of smoke.

There are probably 10 scazzilion 45-70's of various sorts in the US, and the cartridge has plenty of 1/2" hole-drilling capability for anything on the North American continent. My guess is that the 45-70 Marlin is making a lot of hunting trips in America.

And there are handfulls of "Africa" rifles waiting around for that dream trip to the dark continent. Sortof like owning a car that can do 200mph - expensive to buy,use and little opportunity to realize the potential.

I think the 45-70 will be around and very popular well past our time. In the Marlin lever rifle the 45-70 is the most fun gun that I own. It's hell on bears and deer also. Loaded with the Remington 405's to 1850 fps it is a hard hitting rifle within it's 100 to 150 yard range. All the animals that I've shot with mine have been under 80 yards and the cartridge has worked perfectly.
Take care,
Dave

How would you rate this load, or, the 405 gr. Kodiak or 400 Swift A-Frame at the same velocity against Grizzlies-at short range, of course. I think that you and I have met some time ago at Reliable Gun in Vancouver and I would value your opinion on this. I have both the Marlin St. Grip 70s issue and a Browning 1886SRC which will take stout loads-stout kick too.

The Marlin is a nifty carbine. Whenever I am out a about, I just take either one of my GG's, one SS an one blued. I also take my FA83 in a 475 along for kicks. The popularity of the cartridge is due directly to the handiness of the Marlins. Regardless of caliber, the Marlin has got its market share that will last for a long, long while. Winchester has a lot to catch up on in the market today. Since I have bigger guns around, the Marlin is the fungun to run with.

A properly constructed 45 caliber 400 grain bullet at 1800 to 2000 fps will kill any soft skinned animal on this planet. Want to go a little farther? Brian Pierce, of Rifle Magazine took a cape buffalo with a 45-70 lever gun.

Dave

475 ; I see it like you do. My 45/70 is more fun than my 458Lott to shoot--cheaper too.

Hi Kutenaymntboy,
I think that the 45-70 load with good quality bullets like the Kodiak or the Swift would do quite well at close range. It would'nt be my first choice but would be better than a mid range 30 caliber rifle. The Marlin lever is very fast. My rifle is set up with the Ashley Peep and the front bead is orange. I shot a nice blacktail deer with the Remington 405 load mentioned earlier and it pentrated about 28 inches on a 65 yard shot. But the impact was very dramatic. The Remington 405 isn't exceptionally tough like the Kodiak or Swift so I would imagine that they would be that much better for bears. I do remember talking with you at Reliable Gun and Tackle.
Take good care,
Dave

Yeah and I get caught too!

One day I was going to a SASS meet and the battery in the car shit itself. There was I, standing beside the freeway in my boots & spurs, 10 gal hat & sheriff badge. I rang Marshall batteries cos the ad says "If'n yer battery acts up ornary, holler fer a marshall".

After a wait of 45 minutes, the battery guy turns up and just started shakin his head; "14 years I been in this game and this is the first time I ever attended a pilgrim dressed as a marshall".

We looked like a pair of idiots standing beside the marshall service van shaken hands and gettin pictures took by my wife who was also in period ladies dress.

I got a nasty habbit of dressin up in pith helmets and red coat to shoot my 577/450 martini, and black shirt and iron cross to shoot my K98 8mm.

Got a real laugh from the highway patrolmen on St Patricks day as I drove to a cowboy shoot on the freeway in my SASS gear BUT with a green bowler hat on.

Wallace, that is the story of the day for me

Great stories Wallace!

As for the 45/70, Lord knows we've ridden that lever action 45/70 to ground, it was a heck of a man killer in it's day. As stated above on thin skin, game say from 100 yds on in it will put a big hole thruogh them. Thick skinned dangerous game, It's just a stunt. I own a Marlin 45/70, I have taken Texas Whitetailed Deer with it, once. Terminal ballistics are poor in my opine. It's taking a nap in the back of my gun safe!

It was not a bad shot, simply that the 45-70 doesn't generate enough velocity to cause massive damage on a broadside lung shot. It was the wrong tool for the job, and the misguided belief that it was up to the job.

The magnum cartidges were designed 100 years ago as the proper tools for the job, and the've proven to be just that in that century of use the world over. The vast majority of bear guides use the 375 H&H and 416 Rem simply because they are the best tool for the job, not due to some macho bs.

Just because a 45-70 bowls over bami doesn't mean it'll consistantly drop a 1000# bear the same way.

I can tout my Toyota truck as fully capable as a 1 ton w/ a turbo diesel. Sure, either one can haul a case of bear with ease. I wouldn't however expect my toy truck to be up to pulling a 4000# load. Know the limitations, and don't believe the hype!

dla

I have owned at different times 3 M70 458s and 2 Mark V 460s and with various reduced loads I have covered the spectrum from 1200 f/s throught to top loads with the 460. However I have only shot pigs and kangaroos with them.

However if I add the 45 experrience to 22 magnum and 218 Bee on the same animals then my opinion (which might be wrong ) is:

In the broad terms there seems to be about 4 velocity levels and at each level is like a threshold.

1200 f/s area

1600 f/s to 1800 f/s

2200 f/s

2400 to 2800

At the high end I have never seen any difference between the 2800 and 3500. 130 grain bullets at 2900 from a 308 seem about the same to me as the 130s at 3500 from the 300 Win with low chest shots to kangaroos. Same deal with 218 Bee and 22/250. In fact if anything the 308 and 218 Bee have been the best.

Many years ago we use to buy the 40 grain 22 magum hollow point projectile from Winchester Australia. Loaded around the 2400 to 2500 mark in the 218 Bee and 223 that was vastly superior on the low chest shot kangaroo than was the 22 magnum factory load, which did about 1900.

Lastly, while I have not shot or seen that many shot with the Ruger 44 magnum and 444 Marlin there was still enough to show that the 444 Marlin was a more sudden killer. However, I have shot a lot with the 300 Hornady hollow point loaded to both around 1800 in the 458 and 2400 in the 458 and the 2400 load causes the quick death.

Extrapolating from my experience and especially that with the 22 magum bullets on kangaroos I would think the 2400 f/s with the 45 calibre would be very superior to the 1700. As a side note the 400 grain 45 is 10 times bigger than the 22 magum bullet and a lot of kangaroos that are shot would be in the 100 pound area.

I am not sure if this is correct but I think the 400 grain bullet would be better on the 1000 pound bear than would the 40 grain bullet on the 100 pound kangaroo and for two reasons. Firstly, smaller animals seem to survive much better than larger animals with the same percentage of body damage. One only needs to shoot a few rabbits to see that in action. Secondly, the kangaroo as a marsupial is a lower form of life than the mammal bear and that would make me think it would require more damage (in relation to its size) to put the kangaroo out of action.

Mike

You simply aren't referring to the terrain I'm referring to. You are lucky to get 15' of visibility. There is no blood trail to follow either. Either you drop the animal on the spot, or risk loosing him.

There are a passle of rounds, or pointed sticks that will produce a wound that will eventually lead to death. I personally don't think that is sufficient for all hunting situations.

Ther 45-70 isn't the be all, end all of NA hunting cartridges and falls short in some instances. It is what it is, and good enough for most situations but certainly not all.

Your reply concerning your buddies experience with the grizzly is exactly what I was looking for; I have 40+ yrs. in the bush, much of it in extremely remote areas, alone, for months on end. I have had many experiences with Grizzlies, as close as 30 ft. and have enormous respect for both the intelligence and stamina of these magnificent animals.

One seldom needs any firearm in Grizzly country as they usually will not bother you if you treat them with respect, however, at 57+ I do not climb trees too bloody quickly,so, based on reports by Alaskan guide Phil Shoemaker, I obtained and customized these two 45-70s, Ashley sights, special recoil pads and ass-kicking loads. The idea was that they would be easier to pack around than the 5 shot CRF .375s I have always used for bear guns while at work.

It seems to me that the effectiveness of these would be restricted to 25 yds. and under and even there, the tissue damage resulting in instant "down and out" might well not happen. I guess that I will stick to my Pre-64s in .375 with 300 gr. Nozzies or Swifts, but, this was a good excuse to use to my long-suffering wife re: "needing" two more rifles when I had 30 already-we all know how that is!

OK, all of y'all. I am not condoning anything but I am just wondering if the new soon-to-be Grooves or the Bridgers or the Northforks would be a better match for b'ars, huh? I bet that would probably be a helluva of a matchup for a bullet/cartridge combo. As I stated before, I have much bigger guns for stuff that might like to chew on my old ass.

Well damn! I guess my poor old 45-70 double rifle, kicking out a 400 grain bullet at 1800 fps is just going to bounce off anything I shoot. Guess I'll have to haul out my 375 H&H or 458 Win. Oh the hell with it, I'll just use my 577 and kill them deader.

I know the difference between a deer rifle and a dangerous game rifle. When hunting things that can fight back I use a more powerfull gun than my 45-70. Not because a 45-70 won't kill them, but as insurance for a bad shot. Haven't needed it yet, but nobody bats a thousand.

Dave

kutenaymtnboy : Your's is exactly why I jumped on that example given by PaulH. And I'm afraid you're making exactly the wrong decision.

Magnumitis causes people to envision that grizzlies are armored. They all magically weigh 1000lbs. And they're waiting around every corner. Therefore you need an RPG for protection. And then you get tired packing that RPG around and you leave it in the truck when you walk off for your "morning constitutional"

What you need is a handy packing rifle, fast-handling with enough wallop to put a serious hurt on a bear. I think you've got that with the Guide Gun. But I haven't seen a bolt gun meet that description.

You might ponder using a scabbard. I find it much better than a sling. Here's a post from another board that might give you some ideas.

Hope this helps.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=011746#000000

dla

I think most game shooting situations are less than optimal. It's hard to pack a proper bench rest in the field. To shoot, or not to shoot, that is the question. One must know the limitations of their gun, but more importantly one must know their own personal limitations.

We are all human, therefore not infallible. We sometimes miss. Even properly hit, some of these big buggers have the poor grace not to fall over dead before they may try to even the score. Or, they may be beating a hasty retreat, offering the infamous Texas heart shot. These are the situations where I want the insuarance of a cannon.

Dave