Here is a picture of the blued barrel blank. The barrel length is just over 24". I am defining barrel length as the length of the rifled portion of the barrel, so with a 4.15" chamber length the overall length of the barrel is a little over 28". This pretty close to the maximum length we can broach, at least in this caliber.

Here it is, blued now:



Fish, you will notice the 15" scale on the right hand side. That barrel is a hair longer than your early posts suggested. Still in denial, I bet. Sad, truly sad. The barrel ends at the left hand side of the picture. I was trying to get it all in and still have a somewhat legible scale for measurement purposes. If you look closely you can see the ends of the barrel. (I am sure some of you will look very very closely)

Scott

Fish,

I did not take your posts to be snotty, it was far less snotty than most around here.

The barrel has been blued (and real badly to, I might add) as a rust prohibitive measure. We don't expect the ol' BATF to move too aweful quick. We used a cold bluing product, that doesn't make a good even blue, the picture doesn't to it justice.

I will post again on this one when there is something of interest to report.

Scott

"I figure a 10 Dram charge of FFg will be more than almost any human could handle. A 10 dram charge of Fg is more likely shootable by a mere super human, but will fall far short of mach 1 when a 2250 gr projectile is fired."

I have a 17# muzzleloading smoothbore with a 1" bore. With a ball, 10 drams (270 grains 2F) is very shootable. At 350gr it got a little wild. The limiting factor is not so much recoil (the push) but, the butplate causing shoulder bruises. If you use a padded shooting jacket and a tea towel under It won't hurt or knock you over, even at the 350 gr. level. That is with a 1500 gr ball. Four ounces of shot, 1800 gr, I never tried past 325 gr. Much the same.

Here is the thing, 250 gr is pleanty of power for anything I care to shoot. I can actually hit stuff with that load and I don't have to get all padded up. I plan to try to try it on wild pigs. If I have any luck I'll try to take a photo and post it.

One interesting observation, the pure lead balls don't flatten much when shot into wet sandy soil. I am thinking we have past the point of diminishing returns. A 12 bore shot faster might be better medicine for any game I might shoot since expansion might be greater from higher velocity. I am thinking I may be seeing the same thing I did from a 12 bore percussion horse pistol I made. I could not get enough powder in it to get reasonable velocity. Recoil became too severe. 40 grains in the pistol and the balls would bounce off a piece of barn siding. It did work pretty good with shot.

Barrel my ass, more like a piece of gas pipe. Blued for rust protection? Oh that's right, certain trolls live in the bottom of shitters like you Scott boy. Gets pretty damp down there I bet. But you're used to it I'm sure.

Well thank you Mr. Hubel! Because of you I have gotten the ol' team together to build ourselves are 4 bore. The initial calculations are done, and we are in the drawing stages now. This should take a week or two, then we will review the drawings and tackle machining issues, verify calculation assumptions have been followed etc.

We will fabricate our own barrel, brass, sizing dies, and bullets. The bore specifications are: 1.026" land diameter with a 1.05" groove diameter, a true 4 bore. At this time there will be no receiver! That may or may not come later.

Cases will be 4.2" long, trimmed to 4.18" +/- 0.01".

Will investigate ballistics and loading through the spectrum of Fg, FFg, and FFFg with 2000 gr to 2250 gr conical projectiles.

Scott

Dave,

I am famaliar with the article. That gentleman has gone far beyond what I intend to do. The point of this exercise, initially, is to gather the following data:

1.) Loads (strains) in the barrel and breach lock mechanism for different loads of black powder (Fg through FFFg), Hodgdon Triple Seven (FFg & FFFG), and finally smokeless (TBD on actual powder useage at this time). This data could/would be used to design an actual receiver for a 4 bore rifle, if BATF does not mind us doing so, and we decide to build one.

2.) To understand what the acheiveable ballistics are with the historic 4 bore cartridge when loaded with BP, modern BP equivalents, and smokeless. We plan on doing at least some limited penetration testing.

So at this time it is uncertain if we will actually build a shoulder held rifle. I know my partner on the project has no interest in shooting one. He once owned an 8 bore double and that was more than enough for him. I am the real driver behind building this little test mule, but he is just as curious about the truth of the 4 bore as I am.

Depending upon what we learn with the test mule, will greatly effect my decision to pursue building an actual breach loading 4 bore rifle. If I do build a breach loader, we will probably use something along the lines of the Harrington and Richardson break action. Of course scaled up and reinforced with top rib extension and cross bolt. Of course by partner has a different more modern system in mind, which we may develop instead. Again, this all hinges on what we learn and what BATF will allow.

Scott

i wonder what pecos thinks of this one ...

The ATF doen't "allow" anything. You can, by law, build an action for yourself. No special paperwork, no permission slip needed. If you want to sell them, then yes. Personal use, no.



Check the ATF's website for details.



added:

(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]





With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.

However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from

imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be

approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]



http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7

A gentleman did a project very similar to the one you are doing in double gun journal 2 or 3 years ago. If I can find my copy of it I'll send you the info.
Andy

George,

I was aware of those statements, thanks for the link just the same.

The concern is that the BATF will consider this a "destructive device" under NFA and I really do not want to deal with the hassle after the fact. The penalty, you know, is 10 years and $250,000. A simple letter submitted to the appropriate individual, followed by the appropriate amount of time (typically months), and one has a letter that covers one's arse! I believe, particularly in this post 9/11 era, that one cannot be too careful when dealing with Government agencies (particularly when said Government agencies are tax police )

If they give me a hassle we will simply find something else to do. Perhaps a gatling gun (but under the dreaded 0.5" bore diameter).

If I recall the gentleman who manufactured the 4 bore double was from Canada. So he would have a different group of rules to play within.

It is important gentlemen, that one plays within the rules of the game. Afterall, there are rules to every game, if one plays by the rules one wins.

Scott

Are you making machined cases.I ask as I have process to
make them from 20mm brass, which I will tell anyone how to do it.But that means going with a standard size along with
the bunch of us, building guns, and redoing Tula 4bore pump guns, that plan on using brass made from 20mm cases.
And the best range of bores for making them from 20mm brass,
is a bore ranging from .980 to 1.000 inch as that gives the right taper to the sides.Ed.

Ed,

We are building a true 4 bore, which as you know means a bore of 1.051". So I guess the answer to your question is no. However, if I go ahead and build a shoulder held rifle, I may adopt your standardized case and bore dimensions.

Have you been in contact with the BATF to verify you are not violating the NFA?

Scott

I am just making 4 bore brass--something already in the
registry as a sporting cartridge, as it was grandfathered in, when they passed the rules...As for standardizing, I want that so that the toughest strongest brass will be
able to be made, so folks investment in brass, won't be in anything that will wear out to fast...Ed.

Ed,
I am certain you know that no "4 bore" was actually a "4 bore" all were somewhat undersized... in the .925 to .975ish range...

I would contact a die maker and ask for drawings.

jeffe

That is problem as there is no standard drawings or sizes,
even for paper shotshell in 4 bore.I want to get between
.980 and 1.00 to get as close as possible to 4bore, but yet
able to use a brass that is in good supply and will make stronger cases than machined cases.Such strength needed
for heavy smokeless loads.Now Scott experimenting with black powder, his machined cases will be fine.Almost all guys with 4 bores of all sizes, now are using all sizes of
machined cases.I wish Scott good luck, as he makes big clouds of burnt powder smoke.Ed.

Ed,

We will use smokeless loads as well. I think the turned cases will work just fine with smokeless powders.

Since you are using 20mm Vulcan brass I would be concerned with the BATF, if I were you. Your final product is a "4" bore, but the BATF may consider it a 25/20 mm cannon and a violation of the destructive device clause of the NFA. Manufacturing even the ammo for a destructive device carries the 10 year / $250,000 penalty. Trust me on this, the BATF is not an organization to take undue chances with. I strongly recommend that you write then a letter, detailing precisely what you are doing, and why, and request their insight as to whether or not you are in violation of applicable Federal statutes. It is the wise thing to do. IMHO, it is always better to be safe rather than sorry.

Jeffeosso, there were true 4 bore rifles made (bore diameter of 1.05"). Many were really 5 bores, but there are real ones mixed in also. There will be a small performance differential between a 5 bore (bore diameter of 0.976") and a true 4 bore (bore diameter of 1.05"). Lewis Drake does have at least one true 4 bore rifle for sale, if you do not believe me.

Scott

Scott, you tell us you have owned several 500 jeffery rifle, shot 'hundreds' of rounds from them, owned a 500 AHR and now will build a custom 4 bore rifle.

On the other hand, you recently considered purchasing a .458 Savage 110 because a $5K rifle is outside of your budget.

I have difficulty understanding how all of the above could be true.

Dan,

I have reloaded for the 500 Jeffery. I have owned a 505 Gibbs, 500 A Square, and a 500 AHR.

It doesn't cost that much to build a 4 bore test mule, Dan. Actually, I could build a complete rifle for less than a grand. The tooling costs the most. Steel is relatively cheap. I can acquire enough barrel stock to make three barrels for ~ $100. Barstock for a receiver is less than $100. Reamer for the bore is ~ $50. The button could be as little as $75 and as much as $500.

Scott

500 grains, ya gotta admit, with a design team of (seems to me anyway) Axel, Mauser and Todd E, et all involved in this project, it will meet or exceed Scott's greatest expectations, I'm sure.

Don't tell me about it, show me!
Regards Mike