I've seen a lot of folks try to argue with Ray about his pet 404 Jeffery loads utilizing IMR 4831. And it is true that Ray is the only source for this load, since every other source in the world recommends Re. 15. Well, I've come to a conclusion based on trying both in my rifle:

Ray, you are a freakin' genius!

I shot a whole variey of loads in my now-working 404 yesterday with both powders. My conclusion, at least with my rifle, is that you can't get within 150 fps of the 4831 load with Re 15 without some pressure signs. I got all the way up to just a shade under 2500 fps with 94 grains of IMR 4841 and a 400-grain Woodleigh. However, I've decided to to hunt with a more reasonable 92 grains, which pushes the same bullet about 2370. Only a slight bit of compression at 92 grains, more at 93 and a lot at 94. I can't imagine how Ray gets 95 grains in his cases without the bullet popping out from the pressure.

Accuracy is the same with both powders in my rifle, which means 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Not bad for a big bore.

Ray, take a bow!

Wasn't Ray getting something like 2650 fps with his 95 grain load? Mighty BIG jump in velocity with only 1 grain of powder.
Rel 15 is a "good" powder for the 308 Win, the various Mausers and such. Personally, I think it is TOO damned fast for a bottle necked big bore cartridge! In the bottlenecked big bore cartridge I find 4350 or 4831 HARD to beat!

Axel

GA,
I have no trouble at all getting 95 grs. in my 404 cases, what make of brass are you using..My loads are not compressed to any degree at all. I use RWS brass, and some Norma. I might add that I have shot this heavy load for years in all my 404's...

I get 2653 FPS with that load and it does not have overyly high pressure and is max IMO in most guns...North fork recently tested that load and did not get excessive high pressure, which in fact is bloody hard to do with IMR-4831 or H4831...He got about 2500 plus a tad in his gun...

Note that my gun that I chronographed that load in was a Jefferys and had a 27" barrel, so 2500 would be the norm I suspect.

I settled on a mild 93 gr. load at 2462 FPS with a solid and 2433 FPS with a soft..as POI was exact.

My present 404 gets 2475 FPS with 400 gr. solid and 78 grs. of RL-15, both shoot well, but the IMR 4831 still outperforms them all in this light gun, but recoil is excessive and with the 93 gr. of IMR-4831 load it shoots 1.5" at 100 and thats good enough..95 grs shoots 3/4".

My present gun is a Obendrof Mauser 10.75x68 converted to a 404 with the addition of a 404 Blackburn box..It is too light to shoot the 95 gr. load, it makes my lips flutter for 20 minutes after each shot...It only weighs about 7.5 lbs...and is plumb thin...lovely to carry and shoots fine at 93 grs.of IMR-4831 or 78 grs. of RL-15.

A plus for RL-15 that is important to me is it meters much better than 4831, and pretty much negates the need to weigh each charge..I love that.

Anyway thanks and good luck with your new 404, it is a grand caliber, my pick of the litter.

Axel,
That is not a jump in 1 gr. of powder, the velocity went up accordingly, and remember I was chronographing out of a 27" barrel...

I recall Dagga Ron, bringing up the fact that I got a 100 plus FPS jump going from one load to another but he didn't realize that was not a one grain jump, it was from 93 grs. to 95 grs so you could divide that jump in half..

Lots of comments from folks that never owned or loaded for the 404 on this board for a long time now, a lot of guess and by gosh and of little substance..

Now many are finding out the virtures of this big case that challanges the 416 Rigby with say a 100 or so FPS less velocity when both are stressed out.. The 404 does have a bigger cross section at .423 and does have less SD, so lets call that a tie...As both are loaded by most on this board and those who hunt with them, then they are the full equal of each other..the 404 in a much more compact and usually lighter rifle IMO...the 416 requires that huge action and that action makes better 505 IMO.

Loaded to full max, then the 416 will best the 404 by 150FPS or so with a 400gr. bullet, it is essentially a 416 Wby...but smart hunters load both to 2400 with 400 gr. bullets.

Ray, I did not mean to imply anything. I was just remembering out loud so to speak. The most speed I have gotten out of a 416 Rigby with a 400gr slug is ~ 2750 fps! If max velocity is the goal I prefer to load the lighter 325 and 350 grain bullets up to 2880 and 3040 fps in the Rigby.

Axel

I load my 404 at 90 grains of 4831 at 2300 400 grain Woodleigh with RWS cases. Easy on recoil and it shoots better than I can see with open sights.

If you loaded it with DB Ball powder you could get a 100 fps more than with 4831..Ed.

Ah, Ray, If I recall, your loads were going along fine getting about 20 fps increase in velocity for each grain of powder and then started jumping up to the 50 fps or so per grain of powder for the last couple of grains. That just made me raise an eyebrow, and question your pressures. That sure got a rise out of you, as I recall. Here we go again ...

I have tried and tried to talk myself into a 404 Jeffery, but it just makes no sense, when there is a .416 Rigby to get my mitts on.

Harry Selby's .416 Rigby was made on a Mauser 98 opened up by Holland and Holland, eh? He wore out at least one barrel without ruining the action.

Anything the 404 Jeffery can do, the .416 Rigby can do better.

RAB, what is your pet load for the 416 Rigby? I have come to my senses after firing off a few Weatherby level loads, and am interested in getting a realistic load for the Rigby.

Thanks,
Axel

Axel,
Glad you are coming to your senses. The "Jack O'Connor" load for the .416 Rigby: 105 grains of H4831 with any bullet around 400 grains, any brass, and the F215 or GM215M primer. I'll put some more specifics on a new thread to get away from this 404 trash.

Mickey: You are hopeless. My sympathies. Get a .416 Rigby and get well.

/

/

Ok.

For those who say that Ray's loads are not compressed, I just loaded a bunch with 92 grains of IMR 4831. Admittedly my cases are thrice-fired factory RWS cases that are still way below the trim-to length.

When charged, every case had powder that contacted the caliper at .500-inch. Consider that the canelure on my Woodleigh bullet is located .650-inch, then I'm compressing .150-inch.

And that's only the 92-grain load. At 93, I really start to scrunch them on down there.

Wouldn't nearly be so bad if my cases weren't so short.

A word to the wise - I have seen a lot of IBM loads lately. Many are simply not safe to mimic.

IBM - Internet Ballistics Magic - Impossible loads, achieving impossible performance.

I am not confirming or denying Ray�s results, just find it very curious...

Alf--With Ray's load increasing about 20 fps per grain of 4831 added, up to about 2500 fps IN HIS
RIFLE, then the last two grains adding over twice as much per grain; you would stop at the 2500
fps level.Thus staying at safe pressure levels.In
all of my testing over the years, that system works safely; IE when increases of powder charge
makes an bigger change in vel increase compared to
what happened in previous charges, you stop.
And if you used a faster powder like 4350, the range of charges that would show even velocity increases would be narrower, and lower.If you used
a slower powder than 4831 the place where the
vel increase per grain changes by going up, would be more than that case would hold.These guidelines work for all big bores.Ed.

/

Oops, my mistake on the maker of Selby's rifle. Rigby made it from a standard M-98 Mauser, one of few they made that way, though most were made from the magnum Mauser. Right on Alf, Rigby's of London did the rebarrel and restoration too, Paul Roberts , as you say. Just a brain fart on my part. Not H&H.

Also please forgive the slip of the typographic tongue. I didn't mean to say "404 trash." I meant to say that I should take my .416 Rigby trash to another thread so as not to offend the esteemed 404 Jeffery afficianados.

Rigby's of London, H&H, dyslexia can make them seem the same.

[ 04-30-2003, 05:29: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Give him hell, Canuck!

Alf-You hit the nail on the head so to speak-- we have to be careful.You can't use any max load data if Anything is changed, even in Ray's rifle, you have to start at bottom and work
up new safe load info.Shooters changing to solids
and monometal bullets, changing to smaller dia
barrel that you mention, changing rifles, etc;
for safety have to work up loads for changed conditions.Thats what the term 'starting loads' means,another word for safety.Ed.

Could be Cannuck! I won't deny or doubt that, don;t have to I shoot both!

As to this stuff on the 404, ask Mike at North Fork bullets he did some pressure work on the 404 using my loads...Mike got 2500 FPS with the same load...My gun is the American version with a .423 barrel as opposed to the European .418 barrel according to Woody at Lothar Walthar. I chronographed the loads with a 27" barrel. Who here can attest to IMR-4831 damaging any gun with an overload?? Perhaps with a underload but not with an overload...

I wish the so called experts would do something besides surmise..Load some, do the home work, cut the s--t!!

All I can tell you is 95 grs. is recommended by Holt Boddingson in a magazine and I worked up to it without a problem, have used it in a number of rifles, and loaded and shot one case 14 times and quit there, now gentlemen that is fact not guess and by gosh, as I have been getting from the experts...

Now I have the records and the 50 FPS was the last load and it jumped 50 FPS the same as the rest because they were 1 gr. jumps, Is that hard to accept or is your math gone South. If so then devide 50 by 2 and you get 25FPS increase, granted it jumped 5FPS, but hey I can risk that.

This is out of my book: I re ran them on the chronorgraph.

IMR-4831 Fed 215 primers RWS Brass 26" barrel 400 gr. Woodleigh

87 grs. 2334
88 grs. 2372
89 grs. 2410
90 grs. 2486
93 grs. 2517
94 grs. 2558
95 grs. 2602

Now that is one shot each so it could vari a good deal with a chronograph as one should take at least a 5 shot average but that would be 35 shots on a cold Idaho day, so I'll settle for one shot each load..Still pretty close to my original figures...That shows an 85 FPS increase between 93 grs. and 95 grs., this time as opposed to 50 FPS on the first time, but devided by 2 that is still only 42.5 increase and I can get that much variation between shots of the SAME load...

And thats the way it is on 4-29-03...Take it or leave, I've been shooting that load for 15 years plus, chances of me stopping because a few have doubts based on ?, is "not likly pilgrim"

Ray--Those loads show nothing out of the ordinary,
considering one shot each.From that data I know
that 3 shots each averaged, would give figures
that would be nearly straight on a graph, and that
with your rifle/bullet combination, the load level of 4831 that would cause too fast of increases, is more than the case would hold.So you have a really safe load.Most guys who don't
know how you do it, have their barrels cut 4 to 5 inches shorter, and that makes up over a 100 fps
extra.Good loading ..Ed.

Ditto Ed,
The data above would not raise my eyebrow. Hmmm ... well, each rifle is a different beast, especially those with 27" barrels.

DaggaRonn-We have 3 pyros here that were not
satisfied with their 338 Win velocities, and all had short barrels.So they all 3 went out and got
338/378 Weatherby's with damn short barrels.I ask
why and they show me ads and pics of gunwriters holding short barrels.Geez, talk about brainwashed.Ed.

To formally lay all this BS to rest: Here is the report form North Fork bullets that surfaced while they were developing their and wonderful 404 bullets:

95 grs. of IMR-4831 gave a velocity of 2507 in the test gun with a pressure of 54,300...MIke further stated one could not get enough IMR-4831 in a 404 case to damage a rifle in his opinnion, towit I agree....

Let me add to the above...those pressure only apply to .423 bores, not the 418 European bore rifles and the results apply to Woodleigh bullets, changing anything from the tested load could change the pressure range...

Hey Ray A. for a lower vel. working/practice load, do you still use 4831 or RL15 & what charge for 2200-2300fps & a 400gr bullet?
thanks

Fred,

I've been shooting 79 grains of Re. 15 and 400-grain Woodleighs as a practice load. In my 23" barrel, this gives me a velocity just shy of 2300 fps, but a lot less felt recoil. Point of impact at 200 yards is exactly the same. In fact, I shot an eight-shot group Tuesday (four Re 15s and four 4831s) at 200 yards that measured 2.8 inches -- all in the bullseye. My aiming point was a dot exactly seven inches above the bull.

I have now vacuum-sealed the rifle and have forbidden anyone to touch it until we get to Africa in June.

79 grs. of RL-15 gave me 2475 in my 27" barrel, wow that is quite a despersion with GA's gun...I wouldn't have thought a 23" barrel would be that much different...

About 85 grs. of IMR-4831 should give you 2200 give or take a little...

My mildest load tested is 87 grs. for about 2300 in my 27" barrel, so that should be good in a short barrel gun for 2200 or so.

With 84 grs. of IMR-4350 I got 2130 FPS in a 254" barreled gun...A load I worked up to duplicate the original loading to regulate the gun with the English sights and that worked well..I shot a couple of Buff with this load (400 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids).. It seemed to work as well as the 2653 FPS loads as far as I could tell, and with a whole lot less recoil..I like this load in my very light Mauser sporter 404 Jefferys, at 7 lbs. it has a lip flutter factor that last 30 to 45 minutes with the 2600 FPS loads..

Thanks Ray for the info., your 7# .404 is probably like the 9 1/4# .458 lott I used to have. A bit more fun than i cared to have!
GA thanks for your input as well. I hope to have this rig up & running by the end of the summer.

[ 05-02-2003, 04:39: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

But Fred it is so easy to carry, My hairs turned white and the limbs are shrinking, the gut is puffing and mother nature is not being kind, so the 7 lbs. feels great and the climax is a one bad punch and its over, one dead Buff, a bloody lip and my thumb is stuck in my nose, but I'm a happy hunter.

Can this be the same Ray that was advising around 9 pounds for a 416 Rem a year or so ago ? You are starting to sound like me (but hey, that's not ALL bad Ray ).

Seriously though, I fully agree that a light rifle makes the hunt much more enjoyable.

Jim

OK, mother nature is taking her toll on me, I gotta confess, but when I get serious, I'll be packing my heavy 416...I do like the 404 as a backup when I'm primarily an observer...