Are there any differences between a true "pre-64" M70 or the "new pre-64" M70 actions?

1. Post 64 has about a 1/8" longer bolt throw which is good for big magnums.

2. Pre 64 has crap metallurgy and lousy gas handling ability. If a case ruptures, you get the gas in your face. If the load is overpressure, the action lets go like a grenade. The new ones are better.

I have owned 26 of thse fine rifles in the past 36 yrs(pre-64s only) and the idea that they have "crap" metalurgy is certainly not borne out by my experience. I would agree that the new ones are slightly preferable for longer cases and, if re-worked by REAL gunsmiths like Echols and Miller they can be superior actions-at a price.

I have had several case head separations during careful load development-the .300 and .375H&H cases are bad for this, I have NEVER seen a problem with any distortion of the action(s), have not had gas in my face and they do not go up like a grenade. I far prefer the quality and function of original 70s to anything made after 1964; I use my rifles in Grizzly country and would not trust my safety to an inferior product.

I own and use some very fine rifles and I think that the Pre-64 70 are among the best of them. Isn't it interesting how many African and Alaskan professional guides used these for decades without a problem, one of my .375s is almost 50 yrs. old, has been reblued twice and recently went to Namibia with the guy I sold it to, after 11 yrs. siding me in the tough bush conditions of B.C., for months alone in the mountains.

I will gladly take donations of af any old 70s that anyone finds too crappy and will give them a good home.

So, is the concensus that "function" wise the new pre-64's are the same quality as the old pre-64's?

The pre-64's definitely have better workmanship and are smoother to operate. The model 70 classic (post 64 claw extractor) has had a lot of production problems including horrible accuracy, scope holes drilled wrong, feeding problems, magazine boxes popping open, poor bedding, etc.

However, once worked over by a good gunsmith a model 70 classic is a very safe rifle. It handles gas escape well and it can be made to feed and shoot well.

The problem with a pre-64 is that if you have an overpressure load, the action will blow apart into chunks prematurely due to metallurgy flaws. If you have a regular pressure load but a defective case, the gas will spray back through the bolt into your face. Definitely a post-64 is the way to go for safety.

I have a model 54 which I love, but I know that if things go wrong, I am going to be wearing chunks of metal in my cheeks and forehead.

500grains, can you give us some reference to the science on M70 metallurgy?

How about the idea that all gun steels before WWII were weaker and heavier than the improved ones mothered by the necessary inventions of war.

How about those 1950's M70's. Aren't they fully adequate for their purpose? It would be very interesting to see the science.

It is true, the Pre-64 M70 has the poor gas handling of a Springfield-type breech.

It is also true that the new M70 Classic breech has a slightly different extractor cut (due to the slightly different extractor) that is a feeding disaster waiting to happen. But a gunsmith can bevel some edges and alleviate this very easily.

Pre-64 and new Classic M70's are both excellent IMHO.

A rifle shooter ought to wear protective lenses anytime he pulls the trigger.

So, the "new" pre-64's models are the same design as old one's they just suffer from mfg problems?

Basically my question still is, winchester claims the new CRF's are of the same design as the pre-64's. Is this true?

I have had two new model 70 Winchesters I dont think I will ever buy another one.The first one is a 338 stainless with boss on it.It had scope screws drilled crooked,it was plated stainless I guess it rusted even before I hunted with it,the spring and mag. follower would not work.I got it for $400 too many problems.Then I bought a 416 rem mag Model 70 express rifle it blew a hunk of metal off the bolt the first time I shot it .That was really scary.I dont think winchester means winchester any more.

So were Thalidomide, LSD, DDT and the "Splake".

Science is simply measurements of natural phenomena made in a empirically verifiable manner. The repeated use over decades of a given mechanism without ANY of the problems associated with the "Classic" action is a similiar demonstration of the excellence of the old mod. 70.

How many of these do you know of that have disintegrated under an overpressure load, honestly, and what is an overpressure load; a case full of Bullseye which would destroy a Chanmplin, let alone any Mauser based action.

My point is that I have fired many thousands of rounds through my own and other Mod. 70s without ever seeing trouble and I have seen bolts stuck so hard that they had to be hammered open with a 2x4--not my loads.

I have had many reports of serious problems with "Classic" Mod. 70s and most of the professionals I know won't use them, after trying them. I would take a Pre-64 H&H magnum with it's 5 shots over my Dakota as a working DGR and have done so for 36 yrs. without a single problem--I understood the question to be about factory rifles, but, as we both have said, a re-worked "Classic" can be a hell of a gun, I think that D'Arcy Echols has a base price of $6000-7000 for his "Legend" model, my old ones cost me about $2700, re-stocked in synthetic, scoped and ready to go, they did not need to be super-tuned and re-heat treated, either.

I have had 70s that were on their 3rd barrels in hot cals. and have never faltered under the hottest loads. I think that lab testing is important, but, practical experience shows many truths as well.

It is scientifically proven that you are less likely to go blind from firing a Pre-64 Winchester than you are from looking at too much porn.

But can't I just shoot mine until I need glasses..?

-Steve

I can only see 20/10 like a young Chuck Yeager when I wear my glasses. Life is not fair. Could be worse though. A Pre-64 M70 could pass gas in your naked eye. Bummer.

the pre64 is arguably an inferior design, but the "classic" is badly manufactured. So it's a tossup. I'll take the pre64 out of appreciation for all the handwork that went into them.

This is the same arguement I have heard for years. The facts are that I, in 38 years of shooting and hunting with the "inferior" pre-64 design have never seen or heard of a grenade attack by one. On the other hand I have seen the effects of one Mauser, four Remington and a new Browning when they let go. I own more that xxx of the pre-64 rifles. The theoretical benefits of the new classic verses the old classic are there. The metalurgy of the pre-64 is old tech. but it will get the job done on a daily basis. The new action does handle errant gas better. I have experienced this for real myself twice on the same rifle. The fact remains that rarely does that feature come into play.
Both designs are more than safe enough to be considered for a hunting tool. Sevral of my favorite custom gun makers have switched over to the new classic Winchester action for their custom rifles. They tell me it is due to the superior design of the new action. But mostly they tell me it is easier and cheaper to buy a classic when they need an action rather than try to find an unaltered pre-64 action. I would have to agree that it is easier. Personally, I would trade anyone a new classic for every pre-64 they could provide me but it has to be in similar condition.

500grain
How many BLOWN M70's have you handled.
Over the past 30+ years I have rebuilt, yes rebuilt, four blown up pre 64 actions, not counting the one in my shop now.
Normally when you reach the point of no return the reciever abutments will set back then the lugs will flare and finally shear off. I have kept the blown bolt heads for kicks. It is impressive to see one or both lugs gone.
I have had to recut the lug abutments and then fit a new bolt to the reciever.
Or replace just the head of the bolt. Yes the bolt head, I make a new head from 4140 and heattreat it to 45 RC. Then join it under the extractor collar groove.
I have one in the shop now that he apparently overloaded it and cracked both the lugs. You can see the compression in the lugs before they pulled from the body. Then to top it off he broke the handle off trying to get the bolt open. This one requires a new bolt body.
I have yet to see an M70 reciever front ring part company.
Lots of 1903's and a couple of 1917's.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith