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Originally posted by tanks:

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Originally posted by JPK:
The same for elephants. If you are willing to take a first shot which is a body shot, you ought to be using bullets which offer pass through capability. the same for all subsequent shots.

On the other hand, if your first shot is going to be a brain shot, and only a brain shot, your first shot needs only adequate penetration to traverse the skull, front to back and side to side, plus about 8" or so in the event your frontal is low, so it can break the joint or spine. That opens up the selection of solids.
JPK

How do you determine which shot before you load the magazine?

On my September hunt in Zim, I shot two elephants. First one was not even the one we were looking for, burst out of the bushes onto the river bed heading at us with some friends. The only shot was a 15 meter frontal and the bullet went through the skull narrowly missing the brain but hitting the spine.

The second one ended up being a quartering shot at 55 meters going through the left shoulder and ending at right hip.

In both cases, being a night hunt, I had only a few seconds to decide on the shot, acquire the target and shoot.

No luxury of deciding prior to the kills which shot to take. So, I had 500gr CEB solids for maximum penetration.

For a frontal brain shot, which will be the case in the event of an ornery elephant, either will do, but the RN is preferred because it will produce greater effect on the charging elephant, which, if the shot is missed, may well deter the charge. RN's will reach the joint or the spine behind and bellow the brain, at least .458" 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps or better.

It is easy to determine which shot you will be offered if you won't take a first shot that isn't a brain shot.

I have no interest in hunting elephants at night, though I hear it is very exciting, so being presented with a body shot or nothing isn't an issue. In fact the reasons I am uninterested in a night hunt for elephants are because I can't ensure a close encounter, meaning under 15yds or so, and I can't ensure that a brain shot will be offered, as well as the fact that I intensely enjoy the typically slow approach to 10 or 15yds when it is possible, which is most of the time - in daylight.

In any event, broadside to quartering to or away, as pointed out by 465H&H, a RN offers sufficient penetration. Your bullet on the quartering to elephant did it's job when it crossed through the heart/lung vitals. A RN would do the same, at least a .458" 500gr Woodleigh RN at 2135fps or better. A front leg bone would stop a Woodleigh, and will stop a NF, would probably stop all or most all other bullets whether FN or RN regardless of caliber or velocity, but the leg will break, rendering the elephant incapable of moving since they cannot run or even walk on three legs.

If I were a PH or maybe hunting at night, I would choose a flat nose like the GSC or perhaps the CEB because of the very issue you present, unknown shot requirement/opportunity at unknown angles. With a RN the only shot options on a going away or nearly going away elephant are the spine above the tail, the ball and socket joint on each side or the rear legs. All are relatively small and all are moving to one degree or another. A good FN at adequate velocity will still reach the heart/lung vitals from behind, which is a good reason for a PH to use them exclusively, or a client to use them for the second and all subsequent shots.

JPK

There have been many anecdotal mentions of round nose and flat nose solids veering and doing a number of unexplained things. We have seen descriptions of actions that are not ideal to what is required when a solid is used. The one manufacturer that has not been mentioned in this regard is GSC. Of course animals have been killed successfully with all styles of bullets and most styles work most of the time. We know what qualities are required in a good solid. Is it not possible that a design has come along that has been honed to a better level of reliability than that which has been available before?

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416Tanzan: It reminds me of the joke about the person looking for his coin under a streetlamp. No, he didn't drop it there but that is where he had light for searching.

So true.

All theories aside, no type of bullet will - 100% of the - penetrate straight.

This is regardless if it is a solid or otherwise.

I am talking about shooting into animals, not in a lab test.

30 odd years of seeing literally hundreds of animals being shot, by all types of bullets, and from all type of calibers.

No one - I repeat NO ONE - can guarantee that ANY bullet will actually go straight once it hit an animal.

When it comes out, it is another story too.

I have seen bullet change direction by what seems 90 degrees!

Some hit bone, some hit only muscle.

Saeed, from 1992 to 1997 GSC manufactured monometal bullets that were a huge learning curve for us. We manufactured no solids. In 1996/7 I realised that there must be a still better way and drive bands and FNs came along. Since that time we steadily improved reliabilty and applied what we learned retroactively. Small changes sometimes have a big effect. That is why I would like to see any instance of a GSC bullet that exhibited behaviour that is contrary to that which is expected. Especially GSC solids. We have solved many problems that have been associated with bullet manufacturing for more than a 100 years and, although other makes still present with these hassles from time to time, any instance of a 'similar' bullet to a GSC bullet is still not a GSC bullet. That is the reason why we make such specific cartridge bound recommendations. Amongst others, we stay away from generic applications, because that is how trouble happens.

The question really is - has a GSC bullet been observed to exhibit contrary behaviour?

On a springbok ambush hunt (voorsitskiet), I took these photographs where a severely turning bullet happened to one hunter twice in a couple of days. It appears that a particular combination of impact speed, twist and bullet construction can cause this failure more often. This was a 270 Win, loaded with jacketed bullets.

So Gerard I have a question about your bullets depending on animal being pursued and ranges. Full disclosure I ve used your flat points and SP in .375 custom magnums at 3000fps to 3400fps apart from SMK. I use in my Gibbs .505 TSX for long range accuracy, NF cups for buffalo (flat nose and slight expansion like GSC flats) and Woodleigh rounds 600gr solids or softs. Also Kynoch round solids in 525gr. So clearly flats are not good for longer ranges ( 100-150yds ) based on their poorer accuracy and BC at least in my .375 and .505, nor are the solid rounds. Your SP is very accurate out to 1000yds, in fact slightly better than the SMK. So I can see the flat GSC is fine for buffalo in .505 upto about 100 yds or so and like the NF a pretty universal round and can penetrate from a quartering away shot on a buffalo - I did have a solid round deviate 45 degrees on a quartering buffalo. What about the flat GSC in .375 or .505 for elephant brain shots and as a universal round? Just for clarification.

LR3,

We make a dedicated bullet for the 505 Gibbs. The CIP spec for the cartridge is unique and, if your rifle is a production rifle, we recommend that you use a bullet we make specially for the 505. I must still put load data for the cartridge on our website but we do not get asked for it very often and the squeaky wheel gets the oil. As you have observed, the GSC FN is a short range 'knock them down and drag them out' type of bullet.

As a longer range expanding bullet for general hunting, use the 505455HV272.

The selection for the 375 depends on the probable launch speed, the probable target distance (for the HV) and the twist rate of the barrel. Let us know what that is and then we can recommend what would work.