Starting reading Prentiss Gray's "African Game Lands - 1929" yesterday. Neat perspective of the times. I'm going to loan it to my buddy who collects Model A's when I'm finished it. He'll enjoy the historical perspective, too, I'm sure.

Anyway, very early in the book, Gray mentions one of his guns is a ".465 Holland". I did a double-take, thinking that all the hype about the new .400 and .465 H&H were for new cartridges. But, from the looks of this, the .465 has been done already. If this is the case, why did it not survive the first time, and will it fall victim to the same failures the second time around??

The .500-.465 H&H was the (rimmed/flanged) .500 NE necked down.

The new .465H&H is a .375H&H (belted) necked up.

Two different rounds.

George

George S, I suggest you read the thread about the 400 & 465 H&H cartridges. Holland and Holland uses the the 375 H&H magnum as the parent case for the 400 H&H. Holland and Holland uses the 375 Weatherby Magnum case as the parent case for the 465 H&H!

Axel

Axel

Did you mean to say 378 Wby instead of 375 Wby? The 375 Wby is just and "improved" 375 H&H.

Axel means the .378, though there was rather more than just a necking up involved.

The .465 H&H is based on the .378 Weatherby family of cases, and Holland says they used the .460 Weatherby cartridge case and applied a Holland taper for feeding and a low pressure loading for proper functioning.

Holland does have the same bullet loaded in the .465 H&H as they use in the .465 NE: the Woodleigh .468"/480 grain.

I wrote this up for African Hunter, and you can find it on their website.

jim dodd

Oldsarge,

Normally I would have just let this go by, but since you're splitting hairs about this, it's obvious you either did not read my post or you don't know what "improved" denotes in relation to modifying a factory cartridge. It does not mean "necking up" as you implied. It generally means that you remove most of the body taper and sharpen up the shoulder angle. In the case of the 375 Wby, they did just this plus Weatherby added thier characteristic radiused shoulder. In fact, "improved" cartridges are not "necked up" at all since they are the same caliber as the parent cartridge.

Hmmm, must make my posts clearer in the future. I wasn't referring to necking up the .375 Wby, I was talking about the .378 case. I know full well what the .375 Wby is as it was still being chambered and loaded by Wby in my youth. Hell, Weatherby was still on Firestone Blvd. in Los Angeles in my youth and I stopped by there occasionally. However, as HunterJim explains in his article, which you do not seem to have read, and as H&H demonstrates on their website, which you do not seem to have visited, the .465 H&H Belted Magnum has rather more to it than a mere necking up. When I spoke with their designer in January, it hadn't even been fully developed into a final form, yet and wasn't expected to hit the market until early next year. In any event, simply looking at the cartridges makes clear that Axel had made a typo, nothing more, and I wasn't splitting hairs!

Oldsarge,

Have it your way, but go back and read both of my post again. You will notice that at no time did I mention the relationship of the 465 H&H to it's parent case the 378 Wby, except to point out Axel's typo. In the remainder of my posts I was describing the relationship between the 375 Wby and the 375 H&H.

Putting the rest of this aside, your last post said you were familiar with the 375 Wby before Weatherby stopping making it. Are you aware that Weatherby, within the last few years, has reintroduced the 375 Wby. They are again offering loaded ammo and brass. Their web site doesn't list any rifles chambered in 375 Wby at this time except maybe through thier custom shop.

David

You can do the 375 Weatherby via Product Upgrade.

However it is much dearer than H&H based Wby calibres and also the non Weatherby calibres such as 7mm Rem 375 H&H. Sounds if they only expect Wby collectors to buy one.

Mike

I beg to differ as to the acknowledged parent case. This was taken from H&H's own website: New H&H cartridges

quote:

---

The new designs evolve from the 375 H&H (its 300 grain bullet developing some 4100 ft.lbs.) For some the wish is for up to 6000 ft.lbs. - but for others this is simply too large an increase. Therefore we looked to create a logical 'stepping-stone' of around 5000 ft.lbs. Thus the timeless 375 H&H with a 25% increase in energy becomes the new 400 H&H @ 5000 ft.lbs. Similarly the 400 H&H, with a 20% increase, becomes the new 465 H&H @ 6000 ft.lbs. The mighty 465 H&H effectively offering the hunter 50% more 'power' than the 375 H&H.

---

So the .375H&H-->.400H&H-->.465H&H, or am I just reading it incorrectly?

George

.375 H&H
Case Base - .5320"
Belt - .5320"
Base to Shoulder - 2.122"
Base to Neck - 2.4976"
Shoulder Width - .4478"
Case OAL - 2.850"
--

.375 Weatherby
Case Base - .5310"
Belt - .5310"
Base to Shoulder - 2.396"
Base to Neck - 2.556"
Shoulder Width - .4920"
Case OAL - 2.860"
--

.378 Weatherby
Case Base - .5790"
Belt - .6035"
Base to Shoulder - 2.3450"
Base to Neck - 2.540"
Shoulder Width - .5610"
Case OAL - 2.9130"
--

.465 H&H
Case Base - .5770"
Belt - .6020"
Base to Shoulder - 2.1060"
Base to Neck - 2.320"
Shoulder Width - .5310"
Case OAL - 2.8940"
--

.460 Weatherby
Case Base - .5790"
Belt - .6035"
Base to Shoulder - 2.3450"
Base to Neck - 2.4940"
Shoulder Width - .5610"
Case OAL - 2.9130"
--

For the record, I would much rather have a .450 Dakota over the .465 H&H any day.

[ 05-27-2003, 20:32: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

I meant "378 Weathery magnum" . I meant only to reference GeorgeS to HunterJim's article on the other thread! I really could care less what cases are the parent cases! Both of these rounds already exist as wildcats!!!!!

Axel

Welcome to the real world, Most every caliber in the shooting world was tried at one time by the British,or the Germans, its all repetition...the 375, 300 H&H, 458, 35 Whelen, just to name a few...