Dan,

I concur with your statements.

A bullet hole in a plow bottom doesn't effect it much. Besides that it was an old plow parked back in the "scrap iron" heep behind the pond AKA the swamp.

ASS_CLOWN

I know people that would get very upset at the little dirt leaks from a holed plow. Some live in France, some in Canada.

Dan,

Guess I don't really follow your last post. The dirt doesn't really "leak" out the holes since the furrow pretty much stays together as it rolls off the plow (at least in this part of the country). The fact is we seldom if ever plow anymore, anyway. About as severe as it gets is running a breaking disc over the ground. We are into "low-till" nowadays.

ASS_CLOWN

What I know from my own expirience is, that 7.62TT with steel core from CZ-52 pistol easy go through engine blocks, but I tested only european old engines, don't know if american are any stronger, but I don't think so. Mosin 44 with tracer ammo easy shoot through 10mm (.40") of construction steel and then it is capable to burn gasoline or so. I have also tried shoting at old car with CZ-52 with steel core ammo, shot was from "front right", doors through, front and back seats through, and corner of battery (behind back seat) shooted out . . .

Also I have seen 16mm plate (0.62") of construction steel shooted through with .300wby magnum at range 70m with softpoint !!!, so I don't belive any car engine have a chance to near any rifle, also with softpoints . . .

Jiri

Jiri,

The important question though is, will it penetrate a pine fence post, and even more important will that pine fence post have rotted away to nothing before the bullet gets there?

ASS_CLOWN

Ass Clown - I think the real question is whether you really OWN a rifle and part "B" of that question is, "Could you hit a fence post if you did have a rifle?"

What is the hardness of the metal in engines?

Just on some of the above examples there is a big difference between soft and what you might call 'hardened to armour plate'.

For example I don't think a hunting rifle as in Saeed's test, even with the speer bullet has enough horsepower to go through 1" of plate if it was real hard.

Maybe very close up it could...gulp!

Karl.

Karl, other than the surface of the cylinder wall, which can be toughened, most engine blocks are cast iron, not hard to put a hole in at all. Course that is back when, todays blocks are not necessarily iron, maybe aluminium.

I did some experimenting with a 444 Marlin once, using 1/2 inch plate. No problem with making holes, so I tried a target piece about 2 foot square against another larger piece, no trouble making holes, in fact it almost holed a third piece about 20 feet away. I am real sure that it would have been a different story if I tried hardened armour of the same thickness. And yes, I was tooo close, about 20 feet away. My 44 RM would hole one layer, same test. Don't ask, one shot from the 44 RM was enough for me, the bullet ended up closer to me than the target, nuf said. That was the same bullet, 240 grain HP.

On another tact, I have seen pine knots do funny things to bullets. I quit using them as targets, also.

Karl,

Shooting at hardened gray cast iron will undoubtedly increase penetration since the iron's shear strength is dramatically reduced with increasaed hardness.

For example the typical gray cast iron utilized for the manufacture of engine blocks in the United States is SAE G3000 (or equivalent). This material has a shear strength of ~ 276 MPa (40,000 psi). Same material hardened (Rc58) but not tempered has a shear strength of ~172.4 MPa (25,000 psi).

Shooting hardened steel will undoubtedly reduce penetration since the steel's shear strength is dramatically increased with increased hardness.

For example the shear strength of annealed SAE 1040 steel is (BHN 170) is ~ 258.6MPa (37,500 psi). The shear strength of SAE 1040 after heat treated to Rc54 is ~ 448 MPa(65,000 psi)

8mm, I couldn't agree more about them there pine knots. They also seem to take longer to rot away too. Wonder if these characteristics, of the pine knot, have anything to do with that sticky stuff, people around these parts, called "pine pitch".

ASS_CLOWN

Pecos,

I am afraid your knowledge of BS ranks right up there with firearms and wood. That being in the NON-EXISTENT category!

ASS_CLOWN

Jeffeoso,
these threads are sad. A guy posting as an 'ASS CLOWN' has made y'all look pathetic, and you're desperately trying to save what little credibility you may have left. Even Paul has nothing intelligent to say.

You can't argue with facts so you just throw any ol' shit up in the air. Damn shame.

Degrading to the forum, imo, kinda like the political forum.

Jeffe, I see the Ass Clown is posting under his wife's membership now. Come on Scotty, bring in all those other phony members to support your BS!



Go ahead and type those 100 pages of bullshit and scan in all those tables and graphs you must prepare. Boy, I bet everyone will be impressed then! No one will ever doubt you again, Scott.







Isn't the 50 Beowulf a pistol cartridge?

We want proof that the individual in those pictures with the 55 Boyes rifle is in fact Pecos! How about Pecos post some more pictures, but this time he is holding a copy of todays newspaper with a note addressed to me, while he is holding the 55 Boyes rifle!

ASS_CLOWN

Pecos

Quote:

---

Isn't the 50 Beowulf a pistol cartridge?

---

No it is a cartridge specifically design for the AR15! The 500 S&W is the pistol version. The 500 S&W is more powerful too.

You do realize you are a moron don't you.

ASS_CLOWN

Pecos,
Seems that judy is breaking it's vow of never posting in big bores again...

Seems you already "showed him yours"... about time for ass_clot to nut up or get out

jeffe

Are you talking about this, Jeffe?

Quote:

---

Should I leave forever? I will check the results Saturday, 4/10/04, and honor the vote.
Scott

---

I wonder how many times Scott has to be told to piss off and die? I wish I had a dollar for every time he's promised this. Maybe then I could buy me one of them "BIG BORE" 50 Beowulf's and a computer reloading program and be an expert like the ASS_CLOWN.

HMMM, I musta time warped back to the Political Forum or something like that...



~Judy, I had some Venison-vegetable soup tonight, ice tea and saltines. Coffee a little later with a splash of Frangelico. I ponder a serving of Chimera tomorrow evening with a robust red, but I'm undecided about which part to serve. What would you do ~Judy? Perhaps a platter of tongue and loin?



Dan



Pres., TYGC



www.Thoughtful.Chef



Oh, BTW, while on the subject of penetration, I know a fellow that tapped a PT76 during the Spring '72 Offensive. Saw it coming up a road and put his Cobra in a hover on the crossing lane. Forgot about the arming distance of 2.75" FFAR's but pickled a pair anyway. Know what? Went through it side to side like an abstract thought through ~Judy's head. Haven't a clue what their SD is but if you ever get a chance, don't try to catch one of those suckers!

Pecos,
let's talk about the 50 bmg barrett and the fact that the coasties use to shoot through disel boat motors at 500yards?

Now, since I've only seen the video tape of them testing it, I think i can believe that a BMG with a steel core 642 grain bullet, at, say 2600 fps, will just about go through any cast iron chunck of a motor out there.

I also think a jacketed steel solid, say 600gr,launched at 2100 fps will chew through any car out there, nose to arse, back to front....

Since a puny 9mm will go through just about any normal car door, i expect any big bore rifle, with a solid would go through any sheet metal... but anything that can be out classed by a PISTOL round would probably have a little trouble with the block.

So,
in bullets with cases at least 2" long, I think the 9,3 and up will do just fine... anything shorter, with a couple freakish exceptions, just are up to snuff!!!


can a 500 smith and wesson do it? man, if i was drivin' and someone lit that handcannon off,... why, i believe that vehicle would jump forward 10 feet, from pure fecal propulsion... either that, or i would have a diamond mind!!
jeffe

jeffeosso that has already been covered. I have shot several holes into engines with a 50 BMG. As someone else stated it isn't too aweful hard to punch holes in a cast iron engine block. Cast aluminum is even easier.

If you ARE ignoring me (finally) consider this a test!

ASS_CLOWN

I know one thing you haven't ever done, Scott.

Told the truth.



.
You are the original Argue Nerd

I know one thing for sure Pecos. I am far more honest than you.

ASS_CLOWN

Very true, Jeffe. I've heard soemthing about that video, haven't seen it, though. I imagine that a 50BMG hitting just about anything would be impressive. Glad that our coast is guarded by men with guns and the will to use them if necessary.

Rick

The United States Coast Guard, just remember, they ARE part of the military. Disrespect them at your own risk!

I have fired winchester 22/250 supreme 50 gr Silver Ballitic tips clean through 2 plough disks, and my .585 Nyati with 650 gr bp woodleigh's went through 4...45/70 through two, .416 Rigby through 4 etc. The plough was an early last century design. often heaps of the lying about Aussie farms. On one occasion I shot a .3003 fmy ball round at a piece of rail way line the center bit and that neally punched through 10mm of steel made a real bulge....car engine would be nothing.

The formula for penetration of high grade steel for a solid bullet is simply based on the sectional density times the velocity. Once you break about 800, it will do an engine block, except if you center pole the crank shaft. Note that few Africn type big bores will make 800. A 220 gr solid from a lowly '06 at 2500 fps makes .331 X 2500, or 827.5.

The tungsten dart fired by the 120mm Main Tank Gun has a sectional density of 1.411 and clocks 5600 fps for a penetration coefficient of 7902. The shock wave from the muzzle brake defoliates healthy trees for a 50 yard radius, so hearing protection is advised. A turret struck by one of these is too hot to touch for about one day in the summer.

The '06 is a lot cheaper and easier on the shoulder...

Sabot,



While I am sure that there is merit in your equation, there is considerably more going on. You equation is most likely most accurate, and therefore applicable, to solid bullets not soft points if for no other reason than the soft points SD will change dramatically after impact (as they mushroom).



The act of penetrating armor, or anything else for that matter, is nothing more than the pentrator exerting a force over a given area (shear stress) which is greater than the shear strength of the material being penetrated.



Since it is the time integral of momentum we are concerned with, we can use the momentum density, an estimated time delta (time required to stop the bullet), and the ratio of Young modulii of penetrator and target, to relatively easily estimate penetration potential.



Momentum = bullet mass * bullet velocity

Area = (bullet diameter^2 * 3.14159) / 4

Time delta = 0.010 seconds (realistic deceleration time)

Total shear force generated by bullet = momentum/time delta

Ratio of Young's modulii - target Young modulii / bullet Young modulli (lets call this C)



Shear stress generated by the bullet:

If the target is inclined to the path of the bullet, using the following angle convention (angles are measured from the horizontal) the Shear stress generated by the bullet is:

Quote:

---

(Total shear force of bullet / (C * area of bullet)) * cos(angle of impact)

---

In order to penetrate the target the bullet's generated shear stress must be greater than the target's shear strength.



The reason for very dense hard penetrators (tungsten carbide, depleted uranium) is to achieve minimal penetrator deflection (as these material have very large Young's modulii)



This isn't an exact model, but it will provide frighteningly accurate results, if you use the correct data.



ASS_CLOWN

My formula is best, ASS_CLOWN

AC = BS

Pecos-He probably has a formula for the penetration

of soft points

coated with viagra.........Ed.

I make my living simplifying complex programs and formulas so they work like rules of thumb and can be understood by all parties sitting around the campfire.

Now I am confused because the cosine of 90 degrees is zero...is this supposed to be 180 degrees minus the angle of impact? That would make sense.

Anyway, as long as the impact angle is 90 degrees sectional density times velocity will give you the same relative answer if you hold the bullet construction and the material penetrated constant...plus or minus the cosine of 90 degrees...

Good one, Ed.
The Clown is never happier than when he can copy formulas out of a book for our amusement. He thinks it makes him sound SO WISE.

Sabot--I agree on keeping things simple.That is the basis
of my wildcats.Simple means easy to apply.

And also means--If you say you have it,
if you say you did it, by God you should share and prove
it, in the company of gentleman...Ed.

Sabot,

The angle of impact is the ACUTE angle of impact, in this equation. Therefore it is only valid if the impact angle is acute i.e. less than 90 degrees. In other words, an "angle of Impact" of 90 degrees means that the bullet is travelling parallel to the target i.e. it WILL NOT strike it.

An example if the bullet strikes a target, where the bullet is travelling parallel to the earth and the target is set at a 30 degree included angle from the earth, you would take the cosine of 30 degrees (0.866 approximately) as the transverse force vector, which is generating penetration forces in the plate.

By the way, your equation doesn't match very well with my experiences, nor those of many that have responded to this thread. In general terms (very general) it is applicable, but I would say that "common sense" correlated better to reality, than your equation. Your estimation equation doesn't account for a the LARGEST portion of penetration mechanics, so it seems perfectly logicial that is correlates poorly to reality.

If your bullet is striking obtuse angles (greater than 90 degrees) we can no longer use trigonometry, and penetration potential is DRAMATICALLY reduced.

Ed,

How are you at solving 20th (or so) order differential equations? If you are up to it I can put the equation together so you can model penetration of jacketed soft points into homogeneous solids. If you want to model penetration into animals the differential equation will go into the 100s of orders (beau coupe more complicated).

I am glad you are laughing at me. It makes me feel so good that I am able to return the favor you have provided to me so many times.

ASS_CLOWN

AC = BS is the only formula you know, Scotty.

Oh gosh....this is so much fun!

I hate to be obtuse, but how does a vector encounter a plane at an obtuse angle and not have an acute angle opposite the obtuse one? I assume you were joking.

Using calculus to solve such a simple problem is like using a 600 OK on field mice.

Can you use calculus to tell me how much longer a belt around the earth's equator needs to be to give 1 foot of space under the belt all the way around the earth?

Hint: you do not need to know the size of the earth.

I once knocked a nice hole in the water jacket of 1952 Buick Roadmaster straight-8 with a Lyman #429303 pointed nose 215 grain gascheck cast bullet (shaped much like the old Winchester-Western "metal piercing" bullets sold in .38 and .357) loaded over a middling charge of 4227 in a 7 1/2" Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum. The bullet passed through the front wheelwell sheet metal first. Softpoints from a .30-30 and .30-06 similarly aimed only made big gray lead smears on the iron block, though they would hole the valve cover and likely dinged up the rocker assemblies inside. Didn't have any military ammo to try back then. Hard cast bullets are harder to deform than most FMJs are. That old Buick engine was cast of a lot thicker stuff than engines are made of today. Nobody gave a rat if their Roadmaster only got 9 miles per gallon.

ASS CLOWN:

Quote:

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By the way your equation doesn't match very well with my experiences

---

Ya know what Turdboy, I think most of us don't give a rip about your "equations" and alledged "experiences".