The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores We need something to beat .460 WeatherbyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I know other cartridges are available that outperform the .460 Wby. Mag, but, few, if any, are factory loaded. It remains the king of the factory loaded magnums. I want to knock it off the throne. We have to design for ourselves a cartridge around the following principles: It must be, in as many ways possible, superior to the .460 Wby Magnum. It must be simple, and cheap, such that it can be factory loaded. It must not be one of those dinosaur thumping .700NE rounds, we don't need that much power! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} My concern was one of pure economics. There is a unique thrill to firing big bores, I'm well aware of that. There is also a unique thrill in hunting big game, we all know that as well. But, compounding the cost of a trip to Africa, with the cost of such expensive rifles, it seems that such weapons and experiences are for the wealthy. Think of it as bringing the big guns to the little guy. If anyone has a concrete plan or design, let's talk. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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what throne? 577 3" has an alter... but the 460 weatherby is just a gold trimmed pontiac, not even a jag. Let's say 470 mbogo 450 rigby 505 gibbs 500 jeffery 585 nyati 600 ok all beat the woundabeast, inho, and do so at lower pressure jeffe | |||
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The logical one is the 500 A Square. Who knows, maybe Weatherby will introduce a 500 Weatherby. Say 600 grains at 2500 f/s would be same pressure as a 500 grain in the 460 at 2600 f/s It is hard to define what "factory loaded" means these days. I would think it needs the calibre to be distributed througout many countries through import agencies. On that basis Lazzeroni and Dakota would not be included. Mike [ 03-19-2003, 23:39: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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We already have one- 450 Dakota. Factory loads or not makes no difference. Far superior loads can be made for your specific rifle by handloading. It feeds much smoother, magazine capacity is generally higher, and best of all- NO BELT. Any larger case capacity is not needed. If you want larger diameter- 475/416 Rigby. I think the "throne" is the same one Saddam is going to be knocked off of in about 3 hours 20 minutes from now. [ 03-20-2003, 01:51: Message edited by: Ken Cline ] | |||
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The 460 wby is already in a throne - a porcelain throne. Or at least that shiny wby stock and Mark V action are in the throne. | |||
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Well, this is high quality, out of the box ammo. By factory loaded I mean, you order the ammo from the maker, and, right out of the box it's a great shot. .460 Wby is such a round. I want to develop a round that does better, and is cheaper. The round is how many years old? We should be able to, with modern technology surpass it in every way. If we already have such a round, perhaps a better distribution model is needed. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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All of your criteria have been met by all of the rounds listed in Jeffeosso's post! I can think of an additional twenty. Any of these cartridges (except the rimmed ones) will work in CZ550's and last time I checked they cost about $650(that's less than a good remington). The cost of a gun is the least expensive part of any hunt! In addition.Some of these cartridges have been around for over 30 years! There is nothing magical about the 460 WBY. It is certainly not considered a king of anything on this forum! In fact, were you to show up in Africa with one, you would be a laughing stock in most reputable camps, certainly labeled a neophyte! The performance of the 460 WBY on game has been abysmal and most of us believe that it performs best at 2400 fps. That is equivalent of the 458 Lott.450 Ackley mag which are proven African cartridges. What works in Africa is 2400fps with the biggest, heaviest bullet that can be shot accurately with a gun weight suffient to distribute recoil and be carried all day long! Finally, don't believe for a second that even a .700NE is unmanageable in terms or recoil. It's not.-Rob | |||
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Since Ruger and Winchester decided they need to add the .458 Lott to their line I think they made a mistake in not choosing the .450 Rigby. Almost equal to the .460 Weatherby but at a greatly reduced pressures. Around 45,000 as compared to the 55,000 for either the Dakota or the Weatherby. You can get the .416 Rigby in the Ruger M77 and I believe they should have brought out it's big brother to complete the line. Lawdog | |||
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50 BMG necked down to .458 | |||
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quote:There is a simple fact that you won't change and that is all bores bigger then 45 cost more to shoot, the bigger the hole, the more the componets cost. There simply isn't a market, and won't be a market big enough to ever change that. There is also absolutely no reason to design anything new, as there are plenty of rounds more powerful. You simply have to pony up the $ to make it happen. As the members of this forum attest to, there are plenty of folks shooting 50's, 577's and the occasional 600. I believe Saeed is the only member with a 700 NE. | |||
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paul h i have a 700 nitro coming from butch searcy the gun will be ready in 4 monthes or less [ 03-20-2003, 05:57: Message edited by: black-powder-big-bore ] | |||
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I agree with Mike375. "The logical one is the 500 A-Square." | |||
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Why??? | |||
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Oblivion-it is more fun to load your own. But if you don't reload the Lott is best. There are three in this picture that will beat 460Wea..left to right-458 WIN---458 Hubel Express---510 Hubel Express--And the latest and hairiest 700 Hubel Express.  | |||
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Must be a thread on Penis Envey!!! ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} I think the 375, 416's and 404 are the kings of DGR's..... | |||
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Ray-Does that mean our Alaska friend is envious of us Michigan guys.We're flattered. How is your friend doing that was helping to set up orphanages.Need your address to send a little for his project.ed. | |||
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![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} Oblivion, what give you the idea that the 460 Wby Mag sits on any throne other than the white one in your bathroom? The 460 WBY will not do anything better than any .458 diameter factory round other than the 45-70, and 458 win mag. With a .458 diameter bullet,of 500 grs or larger, once the velocity passes 2400 fps, nothing is gained on game! Actually, it performs less effectively than the 500 gr bullet at 2400 fps. This is not just my opinion, but has been proven on African game, by the Profesional Hunters association of RSA. If you are baseing your valuation of the 460 Wby on the numbers in some book, you need to know numbers in a book do not kill Cape Buffalo, and those numbers have little to do with a cartridge's real effectivness on anything but handloader's mind! Rob is right, if you show up in a Safari camp with one, you are going to be viewed with a bucket full of suspicion, of being a real beginer! For some reason the 460 Weatherbys are far more popular around large urban cities, than they are in the game fields of Africa! STRANGE HUH? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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![[Embarrassed]](images/icons/blush.gif){kind=icon} Seems my info is out of date again! My old Lexicon book needs a more updated companion, I guess. If a proven failure, then, I guess we already have what we need. Sorry for asking a question that had an answer. | |||
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quote:ED - We shoot real rifles in Alaska - take a look here, it may be just what you seek: web page | |||
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web page - sorry for that momentary glitch; Ed, this here is for you and your fantasy cartridges - get help. KMule | |||
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Momentary Glitch kind of describes you.Have you tested a round 1900 times over three years like I did my 458 HE.Everyone does their thing.Why don't you without being obnoxious??? Gun snobs like you are the reason shooting sports are under attack. Gunowners screwing each other.I laid my cartridge project aside in 98 to work with Johnny Rowland and others to set up a TV Network for gunowners.Because of guys and businesses with snobbish attitudes like you, we couldn't get the gunowners and groups together to get it done.It put me in the hole for TV expenses, so far,I sold 3/4 of my farm to get out. And I am still working to lobby for the Network for Gunowners..So your crap isn't appropriate.Ed. | |||
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The .465 H&H has been announced and ammunition will be available from Wolfgang Romey "real soon now". There is a sketch from Holland in my article on the African Hunter website that shows the details: the .378 Weatherby case necked up, with a H&H taper, and using the .468"/480 grain Woodleigh bullets. Another path is to buy used Weatherby rifles as posted above, buy factory ammo and pull the bullets and drop the powder charge until you get about 2,375 fps at the muzzle. Then shoot that for your practice load, and go hunting with your CRF rifle.jim dodd [ 03-21-2003, 20:37: Message edited by: HunterJim ] | |||
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Jim--Or to make use of the 460 power for dangerous game use a longer heavier bullet, 600-650 gr, and that will slow them down to where they work best and you would gain penetration.Ed. | |||
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quote:Now this is something I would buy and it should be mentioned more often. A 458 caliber with 600-grain at around 2400 fps would satisfy the ideal big bore load for Africa . Thanks. | |||
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Just remember, sometimes you need more then a couple rounds against Cape buffalo, and that's all you get in the mag in a Wby... I also like the idea of a cheap 460, loaded down to 2400. Less pressure, and still good velocity. Heavier bullets just add recoil, but sounds good. Still, reality check. Is there something wrong with 500 grains, of lead at 2400 fps, or tungsten,etc.? Doesn't penetrate? gs | |||
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Mingo;All--Ole John is the one who developed the 460 from 378 brass. Took it to Africa to test out. I still remember picture of him and the rifle with about a 3 ft barrel.He used 600 gr and heavier. Who can be the first on this forum to tell us his last name.Ed. | |||
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Buhmiller. | |||
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Daggaron gets the cigar.Are you an old smart guy like me.Sure would have been nice to have been in Africa with him back then. You know folks will always argue about Weatherby versus everyone else.And it really is a matter of what you like to do in hunting and shooting. If you hunt and don't want to reload they work. If reloading and developement is your passion, and it is mine, then Weatherby is harder to get loads tto do what you want with long life for the brass in the 460. Ed. | |||
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If reloading and developement is your passion, and it is mine, then Weatherby is harder to get loads tto do what you want with long life for the brass in the 460. Ed. | |||
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My exact sentiments Mike.Shoot,I have never even really had to toy with loads with mine.Have always found my Weatherby's favorite load within the first 10 different loads,usualy within 5. As for this KMuleinAlaska-would you please explain why you're so pissed at Ed Hubel?All the guy did was design a cartridge.I guess you're pissed at JD Jones,Roy Weatherby,PO Ackley and Elmer Keith too?? Brian. | |||
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Brian;Mike--My point on 460 is I am old cheapskate and want brass to last over 50 up to 100 reloadings, like my wildcat 458.And 460 might get to ten if I am lucky..Example-I built 3 rifles, built 230 of my wildcat cases, tested it over 3 year period,have 150 cases left good for at least 10,000 moderate pressure reloads, all for less than the cost of one 460 Weatherby rifle.And had a great time doing it.Ed. | |||
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Why do your wildcat cases last from 50 to 100 shots and 460 Wby cases last only 10 shots? I can make a 460 case last for 1 shot or 50 shots all depending on the load. | |||
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Ed - my beef with your posts is your numbers, they don't jive with reality; no bs, I don't believe your stated velocities, they seem to be on the "generous" side - if you and your cartridges are real, demonstrate this reality. Or better, take a trip to the machine gun shoot at Knob Creek, Kentucky - April 11-13 - many enthusiasts will be in attendance and you can advertise your hubel creations. Good luck and safe shooting - KMule | |||
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Brian M - I am not nor ever been pissed at Ed Hubel; I simply don't believe the posted numbers / velocities. It seems that many wildcatters have "optimistic" chronographs - KMule | |||
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Kmule-My chrono is a Competition Electronics. I lapped my barrels. Did my own rechambering to make that perfect.Being single shot, bullets were seated out to get more powder in.And most important in the 500 gr loading one powder was perfect WW-760, with high energy per grain and high density full load.Over 10% more of that powder than is max for Weatherby, gives better velocity.No magic.I think I have a fast barrel, and chrono readings are for the long barrel. Mike-Oh I know that weatherby can last 50 rounds, but at pressures folks want to use it at, it won't.At the same pressure to get 2500 fps with 500 gr for example it won't wear like mine.And that is no blotch on Weatherby name, just a function of cartridge design.458 Win, 458 Lott will last similiar to mine,and 460 G&A,460 RUM, Dakota, or any bottle neck case will last for less reloading like Weatherby.Weatherby did a good thing making the 460, as they shot stupid Winchester in the ass for making a African cartridge, with much to low powder cap.Should have built Lott or Ackley type.ED | |||
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I can see how with very low pressure loads a straight case might last longer. However if I load a Weatherby or any other bottle neck case so the case is finsihed in 5 or 10 shots then the case will be finished because of loose primer pocket. By the way, I "think" Win 748, 760 and 785 all have lower energy per grain. Mike | |||
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Mike-Neighbor reloading 460 had loose primers and some neck splits.I have always been taught that double base ball powder had more energy.Ed. | |||
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I can't remember the reason why Winchester ball powder has less energy per grain but I remember reading it and my experience has been that is the case and especially with Winchester 760. A 375 H&H will demonstrate that. How is your brass going to last 50 to 100 times with the same pressure as opposed to only 10 times in the 460 Weatherby. Mike | |||
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