Gentlemen,

Here are the results of our own Walterhog bullets in the 404 Jefferey.

The rifle is custom made on a Sako 75 action, with a Lothar Walther barrel, finished at 25.5 inches. The stock is standard Sako synthetic, and a 4.5-14 X Leupold scope.

The bullets are 405 grains, and so far we have only tyried Varget, which seems to work very well in it.



I will post all the data once I have tried a few more powders on our Reloading page.

WOW!!!!

Wanna turn some of those in .550?

jeffe

2591 fps? Those things are zooming!

We were surprised by this too.

I have started using VVN 550 today, and will post our results when I am finished with it.

I only have about 50 bullets left, as one of my friends was visiting, and he decided to take some to try in Africa.

I will report what results he gets with them after his hunt.

I would imagine they would penetrate a buffalo from one end to the other.

We had an idea, which we hope to put to the test.

Our CNC machine is broke, and we are in the process of getting a better one.

We thought of making bullets in 9.3, 375, 404, 416, and 458. All the same design, and we will stick to normal weights in each caliber.

We intend to shoot them from relatively slow velocities, up to their maximum, and check the penetration at each velocity.

Saeed



What weight is planned of the 9,3? I'm looking forward too see them



Cheers

/ JOHAN

Saeed, what kind of pressures are you getting w/ 86gr Varget? I'm using up to 86gr of IMR4831 under a 400gr bullet & getting about 2300fps.

I got 2653 FPS in my 27 inch barrel with 95 grs. of IMR-4831 and 2633 in my new gun with a 26 inch barrel and brass last forever...IMR 4831 and the 404 are like Karo syrup and peanut butter, on biscuits , they just go together...

I am hoping my 404 is ready to go to Africa in time this year along with my 470 stuffed with FN 500 gr. Bridger FN solid bullets..That ought to tune a buffalo up...

JOHAN,

Will stick to the normal factory offred weights in all these calibers.

I.e. 280 for 9.3
300 for the 375
400 for the 416
405 for the 404
500 for the 458

Fred,

We do not have any pressure testing equipment, but have not noticed any signs of excessive presure in these loads.

Jim,

I was going to keep this a secret until all our tests have been done, but now that you have asked, I will tell you.

Please make sure you keep this under your hat, we don't want to start another 45-70 thread yet!

WE found that a cast, soft lead bullet, of 385 grains, lubricated with giraffe and zebra fat - mixed 35/65 - at 1837 fps, penetrates further than a 750 grain lathe turned copper bullet out of the 577 T.Rex at 2550 fps.

The secret is we insert a 0.080" steel needle at the front of the cast bullet - protroding 0.455" from teh front of the bullet.

Apparently the steel needle penetrates, and the lead just flows into the hole it makes.

Walter has already applied for a patent for thie revolutionary system, but AR members are free to use it free of charge.

Whoa there Saeed..

Did you say a cast bullet, at 1800+ will out penetrate the 577 trex?

Now, i don't know what you are thinking, but according to the sources i've been reading, anything over 1600s further REDUCE penetration.

I'ld like you run yout little "test" again, only this time use licorice in place of the steel and run those bullets about 1450....

make sure there's nothing for at least 60 feet behind that, as even an m1a1 tank would not be asufficent backstop

Well, perhaps at 1450.. but PLEASE dont take the same bullet and use a sling shot... i fyou aimed it at the earth, you might get complete passthrough, with an exitwound.. and it carry right along, dump lead into the sun, and then LIGHTS OUT, just because some yahoo just HAD to have more penetration

Remember, Saeed, the fate of the world is in the hands of those that know "slowout penetrates fast, especially jaclet vs cast"

jeffe

Jeff, it's the needle that is the "secret"

A good one Saeed!

We have also discovered that the steel needle needs to be annealed, otherwise it has a tendency to break, and when that happens, NO PENETRATION

Ahhh, but be careful when you anneal that your "penetrator" doesn't become too soft. From all the TV ads in the states, that has become a major problem over here.

More results, this time with VVN 550 powder.


72.0 - 2123 - 1.022
74.0 - 2173 - 0.836
76.0 - 2218 - 0.747
78.0 - 2288 - 0.438
80.0 - 2340 - 0.660
82.0 - 2390 - 0.619
84.0 - 2454 - 0.903
86.0 - 2509 - 0.224
88.0 - 2559 - 0.617
90.0 - 2618 - 0.621

This is just getting "worse," and maybe beyond the supposed benefit of higher velocities capable with the .416 Rigby over that if the .416 Rem. Mag.



At 2600 fps, the muzzle energy is now beyond the nominal value of the .458 Lott of 5800 ft-lbs.



I find these terribly interesting results for your bullets, and powders. But 2400 fps is plenty for me, muzzle energy and abuse wise. I guess the old .404 at 2150 fps isn't so much anymore.



I am curious, though, as to how much of this is bullet independent and powder dependent. Any idea?



Thanks, Saeed.

Will,

This is the first 404 that I have shot, and I found that the Sako stock does not fit me well at all.

It had too much drop, so I put a couple of layers of 1/4" of rubber on it for me to shoot comfortably.

It seems factory ballistics for this are relatively mild, as some of our friends on this forum have stated they are getting velocities in excess of 2600 fps.

Penetration-wise, I know from my own experience with the Barnes X bullets in 375 caliber, that at 3140 fps they penetrate less than at 2650 fps.

That is why I would like to run penetration tests on all these calibers, using bullets of the same design, and shot from the slowest practical velocities, to their maximum velocities.

Saeed

Interesting to say th least. What OAL cartridge length do you have with the Waltherhog bullets?

I think that this rifle should be a fine substitute for Walther to use at this years Safari when the blaser R-93 stays at home I mean 2300-2600 fps should work just fine on warthogs

Or build the 15.8mm/155mm Walterhog Inter-Emirates Express I guess it would not only be a flying rifle, but a rifle that will orbit the earth

Cheers
/ JOHAN

Saeed,

Remember that twistrate has a lot to say penetrationwise..
I quess that Lazzerone uses a 1-16" twist in their 375..
I think that is the reason for poorer penetration compared to a 2650 f/s load in your other 375 rifle (375/404 with a 1-12" twist i quess???)
If you do the penetration test (sounds very exciting..) then remember this issue..

In an ideal world, we would run these tests with rifles that have different twists rates. But, I am afraid that is not going practical.

But, hopefully having the same bullet, shot from the slowest practical velocities, to the maximum that can be had in these calibers, might give us an idea of what happens as the velocity goes up.

JOHAN,

Walter refuses to shoot any of these calibers. He says they scramble his brains. Not that he has any

Although I can get 2653 with my 404, I have settled on 2350 to 2400 with a 400 gr. bullet as that is about all the conventional premiums can stand in my penitration box of dry magazines..That equates to 93 grs. of IMR-4831 in my old gun...and recoil is much nicer anyway...I suspect some monolithics could survive those velocities, but would no doubt blow all the petals off and become a flat nose solid, which isn't all that bad perhaps...

I shoot NOrthfork, Woodleighs and have a supply of GS Custom and Bridger flat nose solids that I load at about 2400 as a rule. They work so I don't play with success, but I would be tempted to try any new bullet, I have a weakness for testing bullets and digging around in buffalo guts....

Sorry I missed that.

3.680"

So far no pressure signs at all.

Saeed,

What made you start playing with a .404?

Don't tell me you are listening to Ray after all these years!

I've got a slogan for you.

"WalterHog Bullets: a new Demention in Bullet Performance!"

Saeed,
what broke on you cnc? wanna put it on a barge to houston?

j

Correct!

It was all my fault. He wanted to make a few small parts for his outboard engine, and asked if he can use the CNC machine.

Apparently, this is what happened.

He set the feed too fast, and broke one of the cutters. He then decided the reason it broke was that it was set too far out of the tool holder - it is fixed, by the way.

But, our genius decided to modify the tool holder. While doing that, he broke it too!

Now he did not want me to know all this, as each time I asked him if he was through with the machine, he kept telling me he needed to do some more work.

Our lathe has a 6 station turret - each station is made to hold a specific tool. He knew we only use 4 of those tools for making our bullets, as he broke one, he decided to modify another one to hold the same tool!

He took the tool holder out - and he discovered that the gears behind it are dirty. So he took these out too. And in the process of cleaning them, he lost some parts!

I have told him - in a language he knows well - that if he ever in his life touches my new CNC machine, it will be the last thing he does before he meets his maker!

Years ago he used to "borrow" my computer here in the workshop. And whenever I got it back, I had to reboot it.

Anyway, I told him to stop using my computer. He did not like that, as everyone else did.

One day I came in, and he was sitting at the computer with his fingers poised over the keyboard, with a big smile on his face.

"Don't touch my computer!"
"Why not? Everyone else does, so why not me?"
"Because you are the only one who is jinxed Walter!"

"Can I just type my name?"
"NO! If you touch the keyborad, I will shoot your fingers off!"

I went and got an air pistol, and loaded a pellet into it.

"You are kidding me. That pistol is empty"
"Well, touch the keyboard and find out!"

We had two other people here at the time, one of them said:
"Go on Walter. Call his bluff! He won't shoot you"

"You don't know Saeed as well as I do, he will shoot me, but I think that pistol in empty"

I saw a Pepsi can next to him on the table, so I fired the air pistol at it!

Walter jumped straight up, almost falling off his chair!

"Oh shit! Saeed, you are MAD. You could have broke my fingers"

"I want you to learn to respect what I tell you when it comes to using my computer"

"You can have your bloody computer, and I promise you, I will never, ever, touch it again"

"Good"

I don't think Walter has any part of his anatomy which has not been damaged in the past due to his behavior.

A few months ago, he was trying to remove a pipe that was stuck under a wall in his garden. He tried to pull it, but that did not work. He then picked a brick, and tried to beat it out!

In the process he clobbered his thump! Removing his nail completely!

He said he spent half an hour jumping up and down, screaming his head off. The only consolation was, none of us was there to enjoy the show.

He went to the doctor, who cleaned and wrapped it up for him.

It was healing nicely, until he decided to take a shower. He turned the shower on, and as to keep his wounded thump dry, he held his hand above his head. He kept turning under the shower to get himself all wet, and in the process stuck his wounded thump into the extractor fan in his bathroom!

Another screaming dance ensued. This time wet and naked!

I can write a book about Walter's adventures. Trouble is no one who does not know him will be much of it!

Saeed,

Thanks for putting the CNC versus Walter saga up for the AR community to read.

That was even better than I could invent. I am still visualizing the pirhouette in the shower, and the thumb entering the fan's arc...

jim

LOL, I got a very good chuckle out of that one. Thanks.

HI,

I have no clue, but are these bullets for sale to anyone? and do you make any expansion bullets as they look like solids?. I have not followed these bullets so my question maybe alittle uninformed,Kev

No sir they are not for sale.

We are not setup for production. We just make them for our own use.

The ones I used last year in Tanzania were HP, and they performed very well. I am going to be using the same bullets this year too.

Luckily, I have made enough for our hunt this year before our genius had a go at the lathe.

I don't think Walter has any part of his anatomy which has not been damaged in the past due to his behavior.



Thanks for the story of Walter's thumb, Saeed. But I really don't think I want to know the stories associated with all the other parts of Walter's anatomy, nor how it is that you have come to be so familiar with all of those parts! Thumbs will suffice.

Are you sure you don't want to know how he shot a chunk out of his thigh with a shotgun?

Ot how he managed to shoot the tip of his finger with an air rifle - 4 times?

Or the day he ran away from the workshop, and we did not see him for 4 days. It took that long for him to cool down - otherwise he would have killed me he said?

Howdy Saeed,
Any further gory details on Walter's self mutilations would be appreciated.

Seriously,
Thank you for the wonderful information presented here.

Not so seriously: I would pay an arm and a leg to be able to get your load data and penetration tests on the 404 Jeffery. However Walter is not to be the surgeon at the amputation.

I never got around to doing my own penetration tests on water and plywood, but I wanted to do just what you are proposing.

O.K., so a softpoint 300 grain .375 penetrates better at 2650 fps than 3150 fps in live game and most other media, no doubt.

BUT ... How does the non-deforming FN solid do at 2200, 2400, 2600 fps from the same barrel, twist needn't be varied, though I do recognize that the faster twist might penetrate better.

Your Walterhog FN bullet should be non-deforming,unless you shoot them into 50 gallon steel drums full of sand, ala GSC.

BTW, what is the twist rate of your 404 barrel. I will look back and see if I missed it.

I am having built a 404 Jeffery with 10" twist barrel. I could compare my penetration results to a slower twist if your data (or that of another member using the same bullets as me) comes from the usual slower twist .423 caliber barrels. Would that be 14" to 18" twist?

I look forward to any data you might come up with. Thanks.

Of course, the faster the FN solid goes, the better it gets, on game, and it will penetrate deeper in just about any media, as long as the bullet does not deform /mushroom too much. More weight and velocity equals better penetration with the FN solid like Saeed's or GSC's, eh? I have no explanation for the 45/70 wonders, however.

RIP,

I think ours has a 14" twist.

When I do our tests, I will try to shoot them from the sloweest practical velocities, to whatever that caliber is capable of.

I had an email from a getlmeman who said he cannot understand me trying to re-invent the wheel. As it has been proven in the past that bullets penetrate better at around 2000-2200 fps.

I told him I was not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, we are just trying to satisfy our own curiousity, with bullets we have made ourselves.

saeed
if you want penetration try sticking a small ball bearing in the tip of your proj ......they penetrate like if there was no tommorrow ...we did this with 22 mag ammo cci jacketed hollow point and those little modified proj
zipped through boars from any which angle and are probabley still going today
daniel