I decided to use my Taylor for the upcoming Spring Bear season here in Oregon. I have a box of 50 400gr Hornady RN SP's already and may as well shoot them up. Not sure what brand .458 brass I'm going to use because the reloading shop was closed to day but I believe it's Winchester. Anyway has anyone worked up a good load using these bullets? I don't really have a powder preference but I was considering RL-15. I saw some loads in the reloading section and I did a search but I'd like some first hand knowledge. 2300-2400 fps would make me happy out of my 24 inch tube and what kind of zero should I be looking at? I'm thinking a 200yd zero as the timber can be pretty thick and I shouldn't need much more but I'm not sure what kind of drop to expect either at any range with this caliber. I wouldn't mind a little more range than 200 but I'm sure these things start falling like a rock pretty quick. Any info appreciated!

What? You don't trust the search?
Never fear, you may trust on this:

My pet .416 Taylor load (maximum, most accurate, and trouble-free in my rifle, you should start 10% lower and work up, blah, blah, blah):

Bullet: Hornady 400-gr RNSP (ye olde style) Seated long, not crimped, fit in 3.4" Ruger box.
Powder: RL-15 charge of 75.0 grains
Brass: RP (Remington) .458 WinMag necked down,
or Quality Cartridge proper headstamp brass, which is identical in weight and case capacity to the RP ...
WW (Winchester) brass will give only slightly lower pressures and velocities, due to greater case capacity, certainly a safe substitution.
Primer: Federal F-215

Barrel: Shilen stainless 1:14" TWIST and 26" length

Velocity: Three shots chronographed at 80 degrees F
2422
2417
2415
ave = 2418 fps

If my barrel was shortened to 24", velocity would be about 2370 fps.

That still beats the .416 Ruger in a 20" barrel.

Trajectory:
IIRC, a 3" high zero at 100 yards is close enough for point-and-shoot to 200 yards, even on small varmints, and will kill big varmints, like black bear, farther than that ... I'll look up the BC and 'puter it.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Thank you RIP! Thats exactly the kind of info I'm looking for! Now say I wanted to be greedy and maybe have a 300yd point and click capability what kind of zero you think I'd be looking at for a 2300 fps load?

Ah, you make it easy: Just look in the Hornady Manual, Ballistic Tables.

416 CAL. (.416" DIA.) 400 GRAIN ROUND NOSE
sectional density: 0.330 Ballistic Coefficient: 0.311

Muzzle
Velocity (fps): 2300
Energy (ft.-lb.): 4698
1.5" center-line of bore to center-line of scope distance


100 yard zero: 0.0" @100yds, -6.9" (low) @200yds, -24.5" (low) @300yds
200 yard zero: +3.4" (high) @100yds, 0.0" @200yds, -14.2 (low) @300yds
300 yard zero: +8.2" (high) @100yds, +9.5" (high) @200yds, 0.0" @300yds

I never like to go any higher than 3" at 100 yards when lobbing big bore varmint bullets.
Use Tennessee Elevation.

10mph crosswind drift for the above 2300 fps MV load will be about 11" at 300 yards.
You might need Kentucky Windage too.

Shoot your load at actual 100, 200, and 300 yard targets before you rely on anything.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Wow Ron you like to smash you powder don't you. What is the case capacity of that RP brass, just curious mine is all Winchester (or RP 300 WM but that needs neck turned so I don't use it much).

Thanks RIP I appreciate it! And I'm def going to shoot it at distance. I have shot it quite a few times at 200 with 350gr Mag Tips and it was quite fun. I was with some friends one afternoon and we all were blasting away at some milk jugs at 200 with the 17's. Well there was quite a heavy crosswind and we couldnt get consistent hits. Threw the Taylor up there and started busting them left an right. Those slugs cut right through the wind. Pretty entertaining...

carnold724,
A-Square pressure tested 75 grains of RL-15 in a 24" barrel of 1:10" twist with 400-gr Dead Tough RNSP, A-Square brass, CCI-250 primer, and COL of 3.340".

They got 2394 fps, SD of 4 fps, and ES of 11 fps.
Pressure was 48,800 CUP.

Their maximum average pressure allowed is 53,000 CUP,
equivalent to 63,800 Piezo PSI.

75 grains of RL-15 is well below maximum pressure, with A-Square components.

75 grains of RL-15 is the outstanding load in their table.

ScottS:
Are you playing with imaginary brass again?

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

That is excellent! Thanks! Now for another question... What is the length of the trimmed brass? Will it be pretty close by just necking the .458 Win Mag? I have'nt rolled any loads for this rifle yet, just my .300 Win.

Thats excellent. I was curious about the OAL also. Mostly as a starting point and not wanting to go too short. I have'nt loaded any ammo for this rifle yet, just my .300 Win. I'll see what fits my mag well. I do appreciate it!

That is excellent! Thanks! Now for another question... What is the length of the trimmed brass? Will it be pretty close by just necking the .458 Win Mag? I have'nt rolled any loads for this rifle yet, just my .300 Win.

When you run the .458WinMag brass through the .416 Taylor sizing die, folding the shoulder into it tends to shorten the case, but then the necking down tends to lengthen the case.
The two actions compensate, so brass length stays about the same.

Max brass length 2.500".
Trim-to-length is 2.490". That is minimum brass length.
I would aim for a trim-to of 2.495".
Just get them all the same length.
Same measures for both .458WM and .416 Taylor.

If you start with .458 WinMag brass of workable length, it is going to be proper length with a simple resize to .416 Taylor.

Annealing necks after necking down is a good idea, as is annealing before necking up.
Annealing necks after 5 firings is a good idea.

You can skip the annealing of the .416 Taylor after that initial neck-down, no worries. It is such a minimal rework of the brass.

No inside neck reaming nor outside neck turning is required.
Not with any brass I have tried.
Very simple loading.
Just use sufficient, not excessive lube on the initial sizing operation.

Quality Cartridge .416 Taylor brass looks, feels, tastes, and smells like Remington basic with a proper headstamp.
It is about 2.498" long as received from Pete.

My dies are RCBS. They are great.
My reamer was JGS.
Chamber matches the dies.

Some sources say COL is 3.325".
A-Square says 3.340".
I have used up to 3.400" depending on bullet and magazine box length, as you say.

DRG says: "Kiss my grits!"

Ron,
No the brass is real. The neck turning of the R-P 300 WM brass is because my rifle has a relatively tight chamber particularly in the neck portion. The reworked 300 WM R-P brass is ~0.005" larger in neck outside diameter than is the 458 WM Winchester brass. That makes all the difference in the world in MY rifle.

My Winchester cases after necking down and fire forming are 2.485 to 2.490 inches long (all trimmed to 2.485"). Not sure what he is going to use but Winchester seems to be much more available than Remington. The Winchester brass tends to be VERY soft out of the bag, so annealing is most likely NOT going to be necessary with Winchester brass. Your brass will be quite a bit smaller at the shoulder prior to fireforming. I have gotten better accuracy using fireformed cases than I have using cases which have just been run through the sizing die for the first time. COL is 3.34", but since these rifles are almost all custom jobs this may vary from one rifle to the next depending upon the individual smith and reamer used. I would advise to to determine where your riflings are with whatever bullet you desire to use and set your COL that way, provided your mag box isn't the limiting factor (it is on my rifle).

Necking up 300WinMag to .416 Taylor?
Not a first choice of brass for anyone of normal intelligence.
Homer would need to trim it before he necked up the remnant case mouth,
and necked down the case body.
That gets the .416 neck into the area of the 300WinMag shoulder and body, where the brass is much thicker.
Of course the brass will then need inside reaming to get rid of the dreaded donut, best done after fireforming ...
What a waste of time and effort.

Use RP or WW .458WinMag brass.
Just neck it down with one pass through the sizer die.
Load it and go hunting.

And ScottS says the WW brass is so soft that it needs annealing to harden it before anything can be done with it?

May I suggest that ScottS should anneal the entire case, especially the case head, where the greatest hardness is needed, instead of only the neck?
Please, don't anybody else do that!

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Ron,

I apologize I left out the word "not" the post has been fixed. The Winchester brass I got was so soft that even after necking it down it would not grip a bullet after said bullet was seated. So I necked up the brass to 0.475" and then necked down to 0.416" which shortened the case. Patience is not one of my virtues. If one takes the Winchester brass and runs the 458 WM belling die through it and resizes about 5 to 10 times the neck does sufficiently work harden that it will grip the bullet once necked down to 0.416". He would be better off buying Hornady or Norma brass if he can find it. I haven't seen R-P brass in 458 WM in about 20 years, where did you get yours?

Regarding the 300 Win mag brass, since I had about 300 pcs I was trying to save money by using it for the 416. As you have stated it was a total waste of time and effort. However, it does work for the 458 WM, go figure.

Hey there,
I maxed out my 416 Taylor with the 500 Hor.SP at 75 gr. RE 15 for 2397 fps in a 23" bbl. A 24" drop tube really helps settle the powder. I have made lots of brass from 300 win: trim to 2.50", liberally lube inside of neck with Q-tip, push into FL die until resistance is stiff, re-lube neck, and push all the way over expander ball. I got 9 reloads before I threw out the cases just because I thought it was time. PGT chamber reamber and Lee dies have the same shoulder angle. Set FL die to BARELY touch shoulder and you are off and running. I also headspaced it on the tight side. Great cartridge.

I found IMR 4064 gave me better vel with less powder then R15 did. I have a 5lb jug of RL15 just sitting there because I like the 4064 better.

I use Rel 7 in mine, but I only shoot 340gr and 350 gr bullets. My rifle doesn't like heavily compressed powder charges, which is what I get with the slower than Rel7 powders (I despise ball powders so they aren't even considered).

Dan416,
The issue with the 300 WM brass isn't forming, that part is easy. The issue is the rifle has a tight necked chamber in it and the R-P 300 WM brass is thicker in the eventual neck than the cheesy Winchester 458 WM brass. The nice thing about using the 300 WM is NO fireforming is required!! The reason for the tight neck was to "improve" accuracy. Neck turning isn't that big a deal, I use a mandrel and lathe turning between centers so it is time consuming, but the accuracy improvement isn't worth the extra effort (it is truly minimal).

Scott,
That makes sense. I did buy some Speer headstamped 458 brass and it does make things easier. My chamber is generous in the neck so the 300WM brass actually helps me out.

What I really enjoy about the 416T, like the 375H&H, is that any medium burning powder I've used works well enought to have fun: 4064, 3031, 748, RE15, Varget, 4895.

Supply is short around here and all I have is CCI large magnum primers... I'm assuming these will be ok?

Also another question... My reloading effort came to a screeching halt tonight when I got a shell stuck in the decap/size die and I ended up breaking the decapping pin attempting to remove the offending shell. I'm going to call Hornady tomorrow and see about getting another decapping pin. After it arrives how do I get the die adjusted so that it neck's and sizes correctly? I see that there is quite a bit of adjustment with the die, decapping pin, sizer combo. And why would my shell have got stuck on the first place? I lubed it. It was a once fired and had already been sized. I took the die apart to get the decapping pin out and there wasn't excess lube built up or anything. I'm wondering if the die was out of adjustment in the first place? I had decapped a bunch of once fired before and remember it being extremly hard to run the brass through the die. I think I even stuck one before... Any help appreciaated! Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by carnold724:
Supply is short around here and all I have is CCI large magnum primers... I'm assuming these will be ok?

Yes, the CCI 250 is what A-Square used for the excellent results quoted above, remember?

About your stuck case:

SH%T happens, eh?
I stuck one in the Hornady .395 Ruger wildcat die.
Happened because I got complacent after a few easy resizes from .375 Ruger to .395 Ruger.
I used an inadequately lubed case, and it stuck.
Only the second time in my life.
Use a stuck case remover kit from RCBS.
Or a power drill or reamer and hand tap, and some cutting oil, etc.
Be creative. Just take care not to scratch or rough-up the internal surface of the die, which may be the problem already.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

yeah I glossed over the primer part, thanks again. And I got it out. I don't see any damage to the inside of the die. Maybe just not lubed enough? I'm using that paste lube but I think I'm going to switch to the spray stuff for simplicity...

I think you will regret "the spray stuff". In 35 years of reloading, the only stuck case I have ever had was w/ the spray stuff.
Imperial sizing lube seems to work very well.
Just a thought.

Today I applied quite a liberal amount of the paste lubricant to a new .458 case and it went right in and right out. So I'm not gunna mess with what works after all...

I used to have a webpage dedicated to the 416 Taylor, but Yahoo shut down the server it was on.

I saved the pages before they shut down. If anyone is interested in hosting it, I'll e-mail them the data.

BW, thanks for the offer. I'm not sure what you are asking a/b hosting, but would greatly appreciate the Taylor info. I'll take all the info I can get.
Like most things in life---as long as it is NOT homosexuality or hard drugs---more is better.

I have another question if I could get some assistance. I sent a couple pm's with this same question but I figured I'd post here too for all to read. I started loading tonight @ 73gr of RL15 in Winchester brass with and OAL of 3.388 to 3.390 and am working up in 1/2gr increments until 75gr and I noticed that at 73gr the load seems compressed slightly. Is this ok? This OAL seemed to be the longest I could go and still get it to feed 100%. The bullets are Hornady 400gr RN. It being compressed has me worried a little but maybe its new reloader paranoia... Thanks!

If you load the 7x57, 30-06 or even the 338 WM w/ 250g correctly, you will compress the load. I have never worried a/b it as long as it is not excessive.
One thing to remember is that powder is springy and if the load is really compressed, the cartridges may "grow" increasing your oal.

I got some range time with them and they turned out fine. Thank's to everyones advice, especially RIP's, I have a lot better idea on how to work up loads. Also worth noting is with the 73gr to 75gr loads they were all compressed and even at 75gr showed no signs of pressure. I have no idea on the velocity but I ordered a chrony from Midway last night so I will know soon. I think I used too look at BW's page he is reffering too and I was dissapointed it was down when I went to look for loads. I'd also like to have the info or maybe I'll look into what it takes to host a page...