I think that the frontal area numbers is the best nubers for "killing power" Because the bigger the wounds is the faster you kill the animal.
But how about this: A .458 bullet have more than 3 times bigger frontal area as a .264 bullet. So if you shoot a animal with a .458 will it be the same as shooting 3 times with a.264?
A .620 bullet will have 2 times bigger frontal area than a .458 bullet! 1 shoot with the .600 OK is the same as 2 shoots with a .458 win???

Bullet Frontal area numbers!

Caliber

.700 have a number of .245

.620 have .191

.458 have .105

.264 have .33

If the bullet expand to 2 times it orginal diameter the frontal area will be 4 times bigger than the orginal frontal area.

.700 Will have a frontal area nuber of .983

.620 have .764

.458 have .420

.264 have .132

So if you shoot a animal with a .700 and the bullet expand to the doubel diameter it will make a wound channel as big as 7 .264 bullets.
Or as 30 solid .264 bullets

Is this right???

I have been thinking before on why a .338 win kills a moose much faster than a 6,5x55. The .338 bullet is 8,6 mm in diameter and the 6,5x55 is 6,5 mm in diameter. The different is only 2,1 mm in diameter. So I have been thinking that it is the energy that kill. But now I when I understand the frontal area I know that the bigger hole the faster death. The .338 will make a 1,5 times bigger wound than the 6,5. Thats why it kill so much better or what?

Overkill,
My multiple hit 2 bore with its 48 .45 calibre balls has thrown a spanner in the works eh?

Another question is with a real bigbore you may actually only get a modest wound on small game.Down it goes.
However a faster small bore may make a hell of a mess, yet the animal sometimes goes further.
Why is that?

And what units are you using for frontal area?

My measurements are
.384sqin for the 700
.165 sqin for the 458
and .055 for the 264.

Karl.

Karl, have you ever shot anything with that 2 bore???
I bet it would make a Roo look like the JackRabbit I shot with a 3" 12ga at about 10'.

Lar45
I don't own one mate. I was referring to a reply I made to one of overkills posts. He wants the 'most wounds' possible so I said get a double 2 bore, loaded with 12 oz of .45 cal balls each barrel, and it will be like 40+ guys firing at the animal with handguns.

Now he is asking about multiple wound areas and how to make a smokeless 2 bore

He's unstoppable.

Karl.

Karl!

Is there any other way to calculate how big wound channel a bullet is going to make? Isnt the frontal area a number for how big the wound is going to be? The bigger frontal area the bullet have the bigger wound it makes?

Cross section is only noticeable with solids in my opinnion, but you can't single out any one option and say thats why its a better bullet...a 50 cal at 400 FPS is not a killer of buffalo IMO....the same cross section at 2100 is awsome, so velocity to a point is a factor..a 60 cal. 200 gr. bullet has a cross section but would be like shooting old Dagga boy with a penny, won't penitrate worth a flip, but make it 700 grs at 2100 and it will work wonders...

you have to have a little of everything to make it work right, that's just plain common since...

Yes but if you have the penetration that you need for that animal you are hunting, then the bigger frontal area of the bullet will kill faster. Right?

In general, yes. Bigger wound channel equals higher chance of hitting vitals as well as a bigger channel for the blood to spill out. But still a 6.5mm through both shoulder, lungs, and heart will drop a beastie faster than a 700 through the gut. Big frontal area will kill faster, but only if shooting that caliber does not negatively affect your shot placement.

Anvil

That is all theory, in reality...It should and does apply sometimes, but not always...It's just not that cut and dried, there are a bunch of other factors that come into play, if only it were that simple.....

So if you shoot a animal with a .700 and the bullet expand to the doubel diameter it will make a wound channel as big as 7 .264 bullets.

Answer to above is yes,if the 700 bullet has same sectional density and you can get it to the same speed.A 700 at that speed is a project of mine.Ed.

In my experience, a big soft Foster-type 12-ga. shotgun slug that hits a deer or elk right behind the shoulder does NOT drop the critter in its tracks as often as a .30/'06 150 to 180-grain bullet that hits in the exact same spot, although both exit the off side of the animal. In addition, often the '06 seems to make as big a wound as the 12-ga slug, even if the slug expands. So cross-sectional area of the bullet is only one factor in stopping power! There must be something else happening as well!

[ 07-05-2003, 22:13: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

I agree 100 percent a shotgun slug has all the frontal area in the world and it is the absolute worst killer of game I can think off...A 180 gr. 06 is completely reliable for a quick kill, by comparison....

Like I said it is a combination of factors that results in killing power, not one factor alone...

What other factors? After I shoot that 20 liters can full with water with my .460 I think that the splash effect has to give a shock and damage to the tissue around the wound channel.

Thats because the -30-06 kills fatser because it has more power to make a biiger splash.

Assuming vels over 2500fps for all.

Py sheeminy, Hans, I t'ink den, VELOCITY do matter??

I have read in a hunting magazine that the diamter of the bullet not is so important if you hit the vital parts in game.. So is it only the leaved ginetic energy in the vitals that is important for the effect on game like moose?
If you shoot a moose in the shoulders at 50 yards with a .308 Win "low kinetic energy" and then make the same shoot with a .30-378 wby high velocity(3500 fps with a 180 grainer) and ginetic energy. Will the effect be much better with the .30-378? Is there a "shock effect"?
I have shoot at 20 l cans full with water with a 6,5 x 55 swedish mauser and it was not any explosion. But when i shoot it with my .460 wby (500 grainer at 2600 fps) then it was a very big splash. The hole can explod. The pressure "splash effect" has to do shock in the vitals as lungs.
Last year I shoot a moose right in the heart with the 6,5 x 55 swedish mauser and the heart explod. That is the best shoot placment to turn of the blood pressure in game. BUT the moose still run for 100 yards. And my buddy say that if you make the same heart shoot with your .460 The moose will die on the spot.

Overkill
I don't believe that a heart shot moose will drop on the spot regardless of rifle used. Moose seem to react peculiarly to chest shots. Through the heart with any caliber is a dead moose.

Factors that kill:

1. Sectional Density, this is where penitration comes from, but depends on bullet construction, velocity and BC for that matter.

2. Velocity, makes for better penitration but only with a properly constructed bullet and can, by creating a wider cross section, actually stop penitration.

3. Energy levels, arrived at by the velocity of a bullet and the shedding of energy that stops penitration or increases penitration. The least important of the varibles IMO, but nevertheless a varible.

4. Bullet construction, the most important factor involved in killing power, but it must be the correct construction for all of the above to work, or it is self destructive..

Shock comes into play, blood loss comes into play, and the stoppage of blood negates oxygen to the brain and that is how a bullet kills, it basically causes a stroke. So, a light frangeble bullet exploding ( shedding energy very fast) in the lungs can kill deer for instance (high strung creatures)as if by electrical execution, but you cannot depend on that and you may not have a blood trail (problematic with a 22 centerfire or 6mm)in many instances...A 180 gr. 30-06 on the other hand will merely punch a decent hole through a deer, and the deer will sometimes die on the spot or he may run 100 yards or more until blood loss and Oxygen deprivation kill him, but he will leave a good blood trail. Because of less tissue damage and a slower transfer of energy the shock factor is shut down greatly over that of a frangable bullet.

This is only a short summary and because of that could possibly be flawed with argument, but it is the basics to my statment that there are so many varibles to killing power that to try and isolate one is folley...

To simplify things, in cartridges it is pretty safe to say the big dog sleeps on the poarch and the rest under the house.The bigger the cartridge in powder capacity and bullet weight the more surly it kills, but the difference may not even be noticable, the animal will never know because dead is dead...The transfer of energy may expend itself outside the deer after an exit, especially with the larger, faster caliber, therefore negateing his superiority over a lesser caliber.

A 30-06 or a 30-338 will mostly differ in range capabilities and at some point the 30-338 will become a 30-06 balisticly..The superiority of the 30-338 lies in its long range capability more than its killing surperiority which is very little.

Thats the best I can do in such a limited space, but books have been written on the subject. Some make since and some are hogwash.